Armed EMT's

[NysEms2117]

Sorry dr p. I can't even talk to you civilly about this. And for that reason I respectful disagree and neglect to comment anymore.


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[akflightmedic]

I carried while working....but then again, it was Afghanistan, so....

 

[Akulahawk]

I do think if you are pulling a gun on someone (in self defense), it had better be a life and death situation, and you better be ready to shoot them. As I was discussing with a coworker of mine, you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill, and you still do whatever you can to avoid that situation (by the way, it's the same situation with cops).

No. You never shoot to wound and you never shoot to kill. You always shoot to stop the threat. Once the threat ceases, you stop shooting. If the threat dies from being shot, well, the threat was presenting a lethal force threat towards you and you shot to stop the threat. If you state you shoot to kill, then you're setting yourself up for criminal or civil proceedings to begin against you and your words will be used against you because it shows prior thought/frame of mind at the time you pulled the trigger.

This info comes from a friend of mine who is a CCW Instructor, Use of Force Instructor for LE, and is a CA POST SME for Use of Force. He is an expert in this and he has testified in court (criminal and civil) as an SME.

 

[NysEms2117]

No. You never shoot to wound and you never shoot to kill. You always shoot to stop the threat. Once the threat ceases, you stop shooting. If the threat dies from being shot, well, the threat was presenting a lethal force threat towards you and you shot to stop the threat. If you state you shoot to kill, then you're setting yourself up for criminal or civil proceedings to begin against you and your words will be used against you because it shows prior thought/frame of mind at the time you pulled the trigger.

This info comes from a friend of mine who is a CCW Instructor, Use of Force Instructor for LE, and is a CA POST SME for Use of Force. He is an expert in this and he has testified in court (criminal and civil) as an SME.

very smart man, and 100% correct. Well done

 

[medichopeful]

I own firearms. I may or may not carry on personal time, but that's not something that I will discuss on a public forum beyond that.

I would never, EVER carry while working as a medical provider. I'm not going to carry while working as a nurse in a hospital, I'm not going to carry while working as a provider out in the field. It's a bad idea, and one that is just asking for trouble. I'm not going to introduce a firearm into every situation that I enter into.

The only providers that should be carrying firearms are those that are entering into known combat situations, and only with substantial tactical training. Any other EMS provider, while functioning as a medical provider, should not be carrying a firearm. Period. Hand-to-hand training and bullet resistant vests are one thing. Deadly weapons are another.

This obsession with carrying firearms while doing pre-hospital medicine is ridiculous. It continually saturates Facebook groups, EMS forums, and I'm sure it will be discussed at the CT EMS conference that I will be attending. This conversation needs to be put to rest.

Want to carry a gun while working? Become a cop or a soldier.

 

[RocketMedic]

Well, I do think that there is wiggle room. In cases where medics are threatened by gangs or criminals, I think that protective firearms may be a solution.

 

[reaper]

Kansas has had this law for a while now. Is there anyone here from Kansas? I have not seen a single incident of anything going wrong from this state. So, I would like to see how it is going there.

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[DrParasite]

Texas Legislature Passes Letting First Responders Carry Guns
Texas' volunteer firefighters could soon carry guns on the job.


| May 26, 2017, at 2:51 p.m.

MORE

Texas Legislature Passes Letting First Responders Carry Guns

AUSTIN, Texas (AP) — A bill allowing volunteer firefighters and first responders to bring their guns into restricted areas has cleared the state Legislature.

It pertains to volunteer emergency personnel who have concealed carry licenses, and passed the House on a final, 136-9 vote Friday.

The proposal now heads to Gov. Greg Abbott. He's expected to sign it, though it will become law automatically without his approval, unless he vetoes it.

Proponents say the legislation protects first responders arriving to potentially dangerous scenes, and lets them get there faster since they won't have to worry about stashing their guns beforehand.

read the rest here: https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...re-passes-letting-first-responders-carry-guns

 

[EpiEMS]

@DrParasite Well, we shall see how this turns out. Laboratories of democracy, and all that.

 

[DrParasite]

My crystal ball tells me that you don't hear anything negative come out of texas. Much of the "omg, if we let people who carry 90% of their day continue to carry on the ambulance, we are going to have all these EMTs shooting people and themselves" sayers will say nothing, because there won't be any of their doomsday predictions. And they will make excuses for why we aren't hearing anything "welll, their employers won't let them carry, so that's why we aren't hearing anything" or some other rubbish like that, continuing to say how it's a dangerous idea based on their own fears and insecurities.

I would love to read the headline of the first EMT/Medic who is carrying and has a negligent discharge while on scene of a call or transporting in the back of the ambulance.

TBH, I'm sure you would. You would use that as a prime example as to why no EMS worker should be carrying on duty

I'm sure you would also love to read about every time a trained law enforcement officer committed an accidental discharge, and then you would be first in line saying that they shouldn't carry on duty either. I mean, in LA County alone, they had 30 in 2014...... And these are highly trained police officers, in one county out of the entire US!!!! 30 times their guns just "went off", shouldn't you be demanding that all the LA cops turn in their guns before someone else gets hurt?

And I know, that's LA, I shouldn't pick on those in California, especially considering they happen all over the US!!! And those are just the ones that the news reported on

And we can't forget Federal LEOs, who have committed the same sin while on duty, and had it captured on YOUTUBE!!!!!

I'm not naive enough to say an EMT won't suffer an accidental discharge, because it happens more than you would like to believe to trained LEOs. Statistically speaking, the questions isn't IF it will happen, but rather WHEN. But why are you making a decree for the majority when only a small minority commit this sin? Especially when those who are required to carry as part of their job do while committing these accidental discharges?

I am still waiting for an answer why a person who carries 24/7, legally and with a CCW permit, loses all competencies in carrying and discharging a firearm, the moment they change shirts and step foot on an ambulance.......

 

[CALEMT]

It's not a matter if you can. It's a matter if you should. Can you carry at work? Yeah, you can. Should you carry at work? In my humble opinion no.

 

[DesertMedic66]

TBH, I'm sure you would. You would use that as a prime example as to why no EMS worker should be carrying on duty

I'm sure you would also love to read about every time a trained law enforcement officer committed an accidental discharge, and then you would be first in line saying that they shouldn't carry on duty either. I mean, in LA County alone, they had 30 in 2014...... And these are highly trained police officers, in one county out of the entire US!!!! 30 times their guns just "went off", shouldn't you be demanding that all the LA cops turn in their guns before someone else gets hurt?

And I know, that's LA, I shouldn't pick on those in California, especially considering they happen all over the US!!! And those are just the ones that the news reported on

And we can't forget Federal LEOs, who have committed the same sin while on duty, and had it captured on YOUTUBE!!!!!

I'm not naive enough to say an EMT won't suffer an accidental discharge, because it happens more than you would like to believe to trained LEOs. Statistically speaking, the questions isn't IF it will happen, but rather WHEN. But why are you making a decree for the majority when only a small minority commit this sin? Especially when those who are required to carry as part of their job do while committing these accidental discharges?

I am still waiting for an answer why a person who carries 24/7, legally and with a CCW permit, loses all competencies in carrying and discharging a firearm, the moment they change shirts and step foot on an ambulance.......

I don't really even know if the first part of this post is worth replying to. How did talking about an EMT possibly having a neglect discharge to not allowing LEO to carry?

As for the last part of your post, it doesn't and I don't believe I nor anyone has ever stated that. In my mind and several others, there is a difference between carrying as a civilian and carrying as an EMT who is working. In my days off I am not trying to get into anyone personal space, I am not wrestling with patients.

In the latest video that DT4EMS posted on Facebook, I'll have to take a better look, but the majority of the incidents I don't believe a firearm would have made any difference.

 

[DrParasite]

I would never, EVER carry while working as a medical provider. I'm not going to carry while working as a nurse in a hospital, I'm not going to carry while working as a provider out in the field. It's a bad idea, and one that is just asking for trouble. I'm not going to introduce a firearm into every situation that I enter into.

I can understand why you wouldn't carry in a hospital, as it is a "relatively" controlled environment, with security (and often armed LEOs) throughout the building and at the entrances. Yes, there have been hospital shootings, but that's why you have hospital police and security on premises.

Why would you not carry in the field? Assuming you do (hypothetical of course), are you less of a target when you are on the ambulance? If you are at the bodega (off duty), and an armed robber bursts in, and points a gun at you, what would you do? would your answer change if you were on duty, and stopped at that same bodega for a quick snack?

If you go into a drug infested highrise building, on a medical call where you don't have PD with you, where everyone has an illegal handgun on them, do you know what that makes you?

The only providers that should be carrying firearms are those that are entering into known combat situations, and only with substantial tactical training,

Why? why should providers have to be "entering into known combat situations, and only with substantial tactical training" but you (as joe civilian) can carry without said tactical training and even if you aren't "entering a known combat situation?"

I'm not saying you're wrong, only that I am trying to understand your logic.

I don't really even know if the first part of this post is worth replying to. How did talking about an EMT possibly having a neglect discharge to not allowing LEO to carry?

it's your logic. You said "I would love to read the headline of the first EMT/Medic who is carrying and has a negligent discharge while on scene of a call or transporting in the back of the ambulance." Reading that headline of a single occurrence would justify your stance that EMTs should not be carrying on the ambulance.

I just demonstrated (using actual facts, not unfounded fears and conjecture) that accidental discharges are more common than you would like to believe, even among the highly trained law enforcement officers. I applied the same logic you applied to armed EMTs to armed cops. That's your logic, not mine. And faulty logic fails the sniff test every time. If you are going to have a standard, it should be applied across the board.

In my days off I am not trying to get into anyone personal space, I am not wrestling with patients.

That's a fair statement. You end up wrestling with someone, bad things can happen.

So how do the cops do it? They wrestle with bad guys and crazy people more often than we do. do the officers have a special type of holster, that assists with weapons retention? In case you didn't know, the answer is yes to that question. So why couldn't we utilize the same tools and techniques?

I think DT4EMS has posted some great information, but most of the incidents involved EMTs being injured, rarely gravely. Many of those incidents might not rise to the level of life or death situation, so I agree, a firearm wouldn't make a difference, or even be justified in it's use.

 

[CALEMT]

If you are at the bodega (off duty), and an armed robber bursts in, and points a gun at you, what would you do?

Definitely not going for my gun. I'm already at the disadvantage with the robber pointing a gun at me.

would your answer change if you were on duty, and stopped at that same bodega for a quick snack?

Nope.

So why couldn't we utilize the same tools and techniques?

Cops go through hours on end of training in the academy. When you throw us (EMS) in on all this extra unnecessary training we're practically LEO's at that point. I don't know about you, but I signed up to help people with medical issues. I didn't sign up to carry guns (on duty) and wrestle patients. It's bluntly obvious at this point we can't sway your ludicrous way of thinking on this subject, so what are you trying so hard to sway our practical way of thinking on the subject? Are you trying to prove that you always have to be right? Or is this some vendetta against us? You keep using the same argument over and over again and providing outlandish situations where the correct answer is common sense but you keep saying armed EMT's and paramedics. You think it's a good idea because of A,B,C ok cool, I think it's a bad idea because of A,B,C. Why can't you let it be? You're not changing a tones views on here and you're making yourself look like a internet warrior past their prime.

 

[DrParasite]

I don't know about you, but I signed up to help people with medical issues. I didn't sign up to carry guns (on duty) and wrestle patients.

so did I, and I have had to wrestle patients. But I also think that if I felt the need to carry when I was off duty (for whatever reason), than me getting on an ambulance would remove the ability to defend myself if needed (after all, I would be carrying at all times, except if I was on an ambulance)

It's bluntly obvious at this point we can't sway your ludicrous way of thinking on this subject, so what are you trying so hard to sway our practical way of thinking on the subject?

so because I disagree with you, my way of thinking of ludicrous? I'm curious, do you think everyone who disagrees with you is ludicrous?

Are you trying to prove that you always have to be right? Or is this some vendetta against us?

You have found my secret... I have a vendetta against you.... if you don't make it as a paramedic, you should become a private investigator

You keep using the same argument over and over again and providing outlandish situations where the correct answer is common sense but you keep saying armed EMT's and paramedics.

what is outlandsh situation are you referring to? the correct answer isn't common sense. That's like saying "well, as long as I say scene safety and BSI, then the scene will automatically be safe." I'm not saying arming EMTs is the right answer either; I am asking why someone who carries 24/7 should have to remove their gun when they step foot on the ambulance. After all, if you carry because you think you need it when you know where you are going, why would you not carry when you can be sent into some dangerous areas without PD to escort you? I'm still waiting for that answer.....

You think it's a good idea because of A,B,C ok cool, I think it's a bad idea because of A,B,C.

we can agree to disagree. doesn't mean I'm right, nor does it mean your wrong. your as entitled to your opinion as I am to mine. But when you try to mandate your opinion upon me, then I have no problem standing up for myself.

Why can't you let it be? You're not changing a tones views on here and you're making yourself look like a internet warrior past their prime.

So because I disagree with your opinion, you are going to resort to name calling?

Here is the other reason why I have no problem standing up for what I believe in, even if it's not the popular way of thinking

BTW, I don't carry off duty, and I don't carry on duty. I have worked for agencies that provide EMS for some of the most dangerous cities in the US (according to FBI statistics, they do change year to year, so we aren't always in the top 10). And I have been in the gang member's apartment on a medical call where everyone has a gun on them, except for my partner and I. I'm betting you can't say the same.

And I will close with this: I don't want to see any of my fellow EMTs or paramedics to be remembered as a statistic. And just like many of the police officers in the US, many if not most will never need to draw their gun in order to defend themselves. But I bet if that one in a million situation occurs, they will be glad they have it, so they can go home to their family. Again, your opinion might be different, but that's your ludicrous way of thinking.

 

[CALEMT]

I'm betting you can't say the same.

I actually can. I've ran calls in the gang infested hood. I've never had a problem because unlike most people who verbalize scene safety just to pass a skills test I actually practice it. I've never been in a situation that has escalated to the point where I need to brandish a firearm to get out safely. Even if/when I get my CCW and if its okay to carry on duty I still won't. People see it as a false sense of security, think of it when SCBA's first came into play in the fire service. People thought they could go longer in a fire and be okay when the reality is you can't. You have your views and I have mine, I personally don't care that you think its a good idea and yes believe it or not I listen to your arguments which I still disagree with. I've made my arguments and at this point this is arguing just to argue. Oh and just to clarify not everyones different opinion against mine is ludicrous. Your way of thinking on the subject I highly disagree with and personally think its outlandish, you have given some ludicrous scenarios in this thread. You think its a good idea to carry on duty, fine, cool. I'll keep my gun on me when I'm off duty and not carry while I'm on duty. Since we are all just arguing just to argue now at this point until there is something constructive on here I'm refraining to post. I would like to press just one more matter (since its the way I am) you're quick to judge (as am I) but before you make accusations about me not liking guns or not running calls in dangerous areas maybe you should get to know someone before making claims (as should I). I apologize if you've taken anything personally that I've said, as that is not my intention. I am blunt, straight forward, and to the point.