Armed EMT's

Gemma Beauchamp

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I was wondering if EMT's should be armed. There are lunatics out there wanting to end our lives. Should EMTS be armed or wait to have law enforcement come?
 

DrParasite

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NomadicMedic

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I say no due to a lack of training, lack of standards and a myriad of ethics questions.

I personally would quit my job if my service allowed EMS workers to carry firearms on duty. And I would make a HUGE issue of it with the media.

https://www.ems1.com/ems-management/articles/134824048-7-reasons-not-to-arm-EMS-providers/


www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2015/10/foghorn/is-arming-emts-a-good-idea/amp/


http://www.jems.com/articles/print/...pro-bono-allowing-ems-carry-concealed-we.html


http://www.lifeunderthelights.com/2...ng-guns-a-terrible-idea/#sthash.ckXVhaUU.dpbs
 

Summit

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Being armed for your job should involve more training hours than an entire EMT class.

There are many threads about this.
 

DesertMedic66

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No for many reasons.

When we start to carry people's trust in us and their willingness to provide information will fade.

A lot of our job is in very close quarters where a firearm is not useful.

2 hands on the patient = no hands on or near the gun.

I don't want to have to worry about treating my patient and worry about keeping my firearm safely secured and out of reach.

When we respond to a location where firearms are prohibited what will be the process? Lock them up in the unit? Will we be treated like LEO and be allowed to enter with the firearm?

I am not turning every single scene into a scene with at least one gun.

Also, wrong sub-forum
 

Handsome Robb

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No for many reasons.

When we start to carry people's trust in us and their willingness to provide information will fade.

A lot of our job is in very close quarters where a firearm is not useful.

2 hands on the patient = no hands on or near the gun.

I don't want to have to worry about treating my patient and worry about keeping my firearm safely secured and out of reach.

When we respond to a location where firearms are prohibited what will be the process? Lock them up in the unit? Will we be treated like LEO and be allowed to enter with the firearm?

I am not turning every single scene into a scene with at least one gun.

Also, wrong sub-forum

The current bill in the Texas house would allow us to carry in restricted areas.

It also requires more training than a standard CHL.

If you're carrying at work it should be concealed and no one will know that you're carrying. With that said, I'm in the middle on this one.

Why does my constitutional right to carry a weapon and defend myself end when I come to work in a public safety capacity where I'm potentially exposed to violent situations? On the other hand, like desert said, we're generally in far too close of quarters for a firearm to be an effective tool to use to defend yourself.


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DrParasite

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https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...lice-firefighter-shot-transferred-to-hospital

When we start to carry people's trust in us and their willingness to provide information will fade.
what are you basing this statement on? are legally armed people less trustworthy than unarmed people? Place provide your source or cite the research that found this
A lot of our job is in very close quarters where a firearm is not useful.
I agree, in the ambulance (which is the very close quarters you are referring to), they wouldn't be. I am outside of the ambulance quite often (side of road, in a person's house, in a crackhead's house, in a drug dealers house, in a club, in a bar, etc), where they would be quite useful, if needed.
2 hands on the patient = no hands on or near the gun.
NYPD ESU in NYC does rescue, often with tools in both hands, as well as high angle stuff with the patient in their hands.... I don't see them giving up their sidearms when they do this. While I agree weapons retention is important, I think your argument in this area is exagarated, at least based on the practices of others.
I don't want to have to worry about treating my patient and worry about keeping my firearm safely secured and out of reach.
fair statement.... what about when your patient's family member pulls out a gun and on you? what will your thoughts be then? oh i know, i could never happen to you, but it happened to this crew http://www.cnn.com/2013/04/10/us/georgia-firefighters-hostage/
When we respond to a location where firearms are prohibited what will be the process? Lock them up in the unit? Will we be treated like LEO and be allowed to enter with the firearm?
hopefully, we would. unless it's a secure facility, where even the LEOs secure their weapons. I mean, after all, we all know the bad guys will leave their guns at home when they go to a gun free zone.
I am not turning every single scene into a scene with at least one gun.
why not? if a bystander has a CCW permit, and a weapon on him, does that change how you treat the patient?
Also, wrong sub-forum
agreed

I personally would quit my job if my service allowed EMS workers to carry firearms on duty. And I would make a HUGE issue of it with the media.
you can make it a huge issue, but is it really that big of an issue?

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/03/26/emts-firefighters-need-guns-texas-lawmakers-say.html

https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-em...esponders-to-carry-concealed-weapons-on-duty/

http://unwiredmedic.com/2012/09/25/armed-ems-reactive-or-proactive/

http://www.ambulancedriverfiles.com/2012/09/13/virginia-emts-granted-right-to-carry/

For the record, I am neither for nor against arming EMTs. I do think it's incredibly stupid for a CCW permit holder who carries 24/7, to have to secure his weapon when he gets on the ambulance (apparently he can be trusted with it all the time, except when he steps foot on the ambulance, than he becomes a hazard to all involved).

I do think if you are pulling a gun on someone (in self defense), it had better be a life and death situation, and you better be ready to shoot them. As I was discussing with a coworker of mine, you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to kill, and you still do whatever you can to avoid that situation (by the way, it's the same situation with cops).

To go back to the OP's question
I was wondering if EMT's should be armed. There are lunatics out there wanting to end our lives. Should EMTS be armed or wait to have law enforcement come?
armed EMTs does not translate into not waiting for PD to arrive, despite what some would think:

https://www.ems1.com/ems-products/B...lance-delayed-31-minutes-after-woman-stabbed/
http://www.wisn.com/article/ems-crew-waits-for-police-before-entering-stabbed-woman-s-home/6325344

https://www.ems1.com/ems-management...-time-questioned-in-death-of-shooting-victim/

https://emsqaqi.com/2016/09/04/ems-in-the-warm-zone-a-bad-idea-based-on-bad-science/

Many would claim (and I would agree) that an armed EMT would be used for their own safety only. If they were faced with a life or death situation (such as the many attacks on law enforcement and EMS in general), they could defend themselves. It isn't about entered an unsafe scene prior to arrival of the cops. It never has been.
 
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Gemma Beauchamp

Gemma Beauchamp

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What if each ambulance has a weapon of some sort. What if the Law Enforcement can't get there and we have to rely on our instincts? What if you aren't near the ambulance and have no way to get back. There are a million things could go wrong.
 
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NomadicMedic

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What if each ambulance has a weapon of some sort. What if the Law Enforcement can't get there and we have to rely on our instincts?

What? Like a 50 cal mounted on the roof? I might could get behind that.

You instincts should tell you to not go into a dangerous situation without police.
 
OP
Gemma Beauchamp

Gemma Beauchamp

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So what if it is an MVA and police can't come because there is a holdup? What if it is a bad one and you need to airlift a person. What I was thinking was something small and easy to get to nothing like a gun.
 

Handsome Robb

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So what if it is an MVA and police can't come because there is a holdup? What if it is a bad one and you need to airlift a person. What I was thinking was something small and easy to get to nothing like a gun.

You can what if this scenario to death.

I've been on probably 15,000+ scenes in my 8 years or so of EMS, I can count on one hand the times I felt like a weapon would've been beneficial and in every one of those times a shooting wouldn't have been justified and a firearm would've been unusable due to the proximity of my attacker.

A weapon that's stored in the ambulance does you no good. If you have time to get to the ambulance you should be driving away from the scene. Your partner and your lives come before anyone on a scene.

Airlift needed or not, if a scene is falling apart and becoming dangerous I'll be working on leaving. Plus no HEMS program will land in a scene like that.




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Handsome Robb

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The day EMS carries weapons on duty is the day I quit and become a LEO.

If I'm not mistaken it's already allowed in certain parts of the country.

I truly doubt it will be long before we're allowed to carry on Texas. With that said the bill only includes employees of counties or municipalities so private service EMS isn't included.


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NysEms2117

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NO. NO. NO. Join Borstar, USAF Pararescuemen, or Maryland state police if your deadset on doing paramedic things with a gun. It's a dumb argument, and has 1 simple answer.
 

Seirende

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I don't mind when other people are carrying as long as they know what they're doing. I myself have never felt the need to carry and would refuse the option if given.

There have been a few times that I wouldn't have minded having pepper spray on me (to be used OUTSIDE of the ambulance, of course). There's not been a time when I would have actually used it, but it would have made me feel more secure.
 

rescue1

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Short answer: No

Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooo

Longer answer: The violent crime rate in the US has been dropping since like 1994, we don't even have the education to do our primary job, and despite being attacked multiple times while at work and having a gun pulled on me, I can't come up with a single time when me being armed would have been a good thing. Unless I was working for a law enforcement agency like NYPD ESU or Maryland State Police there is no universe where I would take a job that allowed armed EMTs.

Also, on the subject of saving lives, why don't we advocate for something like ambulance safety standards or physical fitness in EMS instead?
 

Handsome Robb

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NO. NO. NO. Join Borstar, USAF Pararescuemen, or Maryland state police if your deadset on doing paramedic things with a gun. It's a dumb argument, and has 1 simple answer.

Says the guy who carries a gun daily

Like I said before, I'm in the middle on this one. Even if I were allowed to carry when I was at work I'm not sure if I would.

One question I have is people always use the argument that there's not enough training. If the state says I'm trained enough to carry a gun when I'm off duty, why does that change as soon as I put on a uniform?

I'm going to add the caveat that I personally don't think that most CCW/CHL/LTC classes are adequate training for anyone to carry a gun but that's a different topic.


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NysEms2117

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Says the guy who carries a gun daily

Like I said before, I'm in the middle on this one. Even if I were allowed to carry when I was at work I'm not sure if I would.

One question I have is people always use the argument that there's not enough training. If the state says I'm trained enough to carry a gun when I'm off duty, why does that change as soon as I put on a uniform?

I'm going to add the caveat that I personally don't think that most CCW/CHL/LTC classes are adequate training for anyone to carry a gun but that's a different topic.


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I think YOU & select others would be mature enough ect to carry, but I wouldn't trust 90% of emt's with a firearm. I also carry a firearm because it's my job. I stand a much better chance on using it in parole/LE then I ever will in EMS. My biggest things are: security of the firearm, your hands are often outside of your frame when caring for a patient which is no Bueno for firearm. What happens when you get a call to a school or post office? Whole bunch of things. No. No. No. :).


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