Armed EMT's

[rescue1]

http://www.co.davis.ut.us/sheriff/divisions/patrol/paramedics

Just gonna throw this out there, these guys don't (seem) to disarm while taking care of patients.

I don't know if it's exactly comparable, these guys are also sworn peace officers with a badge and (presumably) have gone through academy.

 

[DrParasite]

While I'm sure I may have eventually been found legally justified for shooting him, especially given there were about 3 seconds where I tried to decide which chair to dive behind, I'll continue to take my chances. I didn't work in EMS to kill people, my partner's CPR skills notwithstanding.

I would agree that aiming a loaded rifle at another person could be construed as a threat of deadly force. And the person's stupidity not withstanding, had he started shooting at you, how long do you think that should would have lasted, should he have wanted to kill you? Yes, it ended well for you, but what if it had gone the other way?

especially since there are so many other glaring safety problems with EMS (traffic accidents, helicopter/plane accidents, heart disease and general obesity related problems are like 90% of all EMS on the job deaths).

I will agree that there are other issues that should be tackled.....

 

[DrParasite]

I carry off duty when I am ALONE, the only reason i carry off duty is retaliation fear. When i am with my fiance I don't remember a time when I carried.

so are you less of a retaliatory target when you are with your fiance? If someone were to retaliate, wouldn't you want to be able to protect her, should the need arise?

Are LEO's working EMS really all that popular.. After all everybody on here does say LEO's don't know enough about EMS, surely if there were a quantifiable amount of LEO/EMT's that wouldn't be the case, eh?

more than you would think, although it's typically an EMT who becomes a cop and says an EMT part time. I know at least one paramedic who worked in a ****ty city who worked in the next county over for several years after he got hired. and he ALWAYS had his off duty weapon on him, just in case.

Just because a LEO doesn't shoot the person doesn't mean they haven't drawn. I've drawn my firearm ready to shoot somebody probably around 10 times, in my short career so far in parole. What is an EMT going to do when they draw? Stand there, wait for the cops to come and do the same thing they are? Last i checked EMT's don't have tasers, or cuffs.

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean LEOs didn't shoot the person, but they don't practice at the range on a regular basis. and I would hope (and I have been wrong before) that if an EMT is drawing, he is either going to fire until there is no longer a threat to his life, or the other person is going to realize that the EMT as soft of a target as he thought, and split. Remember, there are threatening individuals, and an imminent threat to your life.

When did I say that? I said that because I shoot recreationally my range quals come easy to me. I have to qualify 4 times a year for parole. The NYC anti terrorism guys are once a month if im not mistaken, same for the federal reserve LEO's. Not to mention they often pick up guys that are <6 months out of being rangers, MFRecon, ect ect.

I'm not saying you don't.... but can you say that EVERY cop does?

I'm not sure your understanding this. Retaining a firearm in a safe and effective manner, in a tiny box, closed with various other things in the way(cabinets, chairs, limbs, stretcher/gurney, short ceiling and various other things) is infinitely more difficult, then retaining a weapon outside where you can move around. So yes, I will take the LEO who is outside, can defend themselves adequately *mostly* in close range Hand-to-hand combat(remember theres fighting dirty and fighting stupid when your fighting for your life*we have batons and tasers*), with handling a firearm safely.

I understand perfectly, and I agree, drawing a gun in the back of the ambulance is generally a bad idea, for all parties involved. You do understand that in EMS you aren't always in the back of the ambulance, right?

I can't remember the last time I felt unsafe in the back of the ambulance. I've been in quite a few dark housing projects, and gang infested apartment complexes and streets, where my the only thought running through my head was "how can i get out of here if things go south, and I'm so F***** if he decides to pull a weapon on me."

Which is why I think all LEO's should have to leave their firearms in their trunk safe when they transport on EMS calls. In close quarters combat chances are your not going to be able to draw effectively unless you've practiced it for thousands of hours. I would much rather take my chances with either my Martial arts skills, or my baton.

I'm inclined to agree with you, but I think the majority of LEOs would disagree with you on your position.

 

[rescue1]

I would agree that aiming a loaded rifle at another person could be construed as a threat of deadly force. And the person's stupidity not withstanding, had he started shooting at you, how long do you think that should would have lasted, should he have wanted to kill you? Yes, it ended well for you, but what if it had gone the other way?

I mean I'd probably be dead. But we can 'what if' our way into and out of any possible situation. I'm interested in actual data that would show that lethal force against EMS is a big enough problem that we need to arm healthcare workers, especially since violent crime is like half of what it was 20 years ago. "Anything can happen" is not a good enough reason for me.

As I've said before, law enforcement agencies with EMS duties are a different story.

 

[DrParasite]

So first off its CA... hence CAL EMT... CAL as in California.

I was responding to @EpiEMS, he's from CT. Sorry if I attributed that statement to you, I meant to quote you on something else.

#4. Training. IF you shoot guns Dr.P or anyone else who reads this. Do you honestly feel as if you have enough firearms training? If you said yes, then carrying on duty is definitely not for you. As stated previously I've been around and shooting guns since I could walk and I don't feel like I have enough training with a gun. When it comes to guns you can't train enough. My dad (a LEO of 29 years) was on the SWAT team for 15 years. Those guys spend hours on end at the range every week. Theres a reason to this. You can't train enough, you don't shoot for a week you're not as proficient. Train like you fight and fight like you train. If you train or shoot every once in a while how the hell do you think that you'll be calm, cool, and collective when **** goes down?

TBH, It's been about 10 years since I went shooting. I think I fired a pistol at my CCW class, 5 or 10 bullets, and that's it. My father and I used to go shooting all the time when I was younger, shotguns, rifles, handguns, just like he did with his father.

I don't doubt your father (and many of the SWAT guys) do spend hours at the range. Can you say the same for every patrol officer? and every supervising officer? How about the white shirts who are at a desk most of the day? what about the detectives? If you think every one of them spends 2 hours a week at the range, every week, than I have a bridge to sell you....

Someone smarter than me can set the standards..... make it so high, where it's a clearly obtainable goal, that every cop needs to do. and only if a civilian can do the same as a cop, then they can carry. but if you say it's never enough, so no matter what a person does, it's never good enough (even though they might be more proficient than local LEOs), than it's an unfair and impossible standard.

#5. Back to the tactical nightmare. Cops train in close distances to go hands on and subdue the suspect vs try to get their gun. Why is this you may ask? Do you really think if in fighting someone that the FIRST thing on my mind is to go to my gun? Absolutely not, my first thought is to gain control of the person. If I pull my firearm while in the middle of wrestle mania 2017 I'm at the disadvantage vs the advantage. I don't have both hands to fight with, I only have one. My gun is out and free. Various things can/could/would happen, I loose grip on my gun and it gets thrown somewhere. Thats the best case scenario. The other scenario is the suspect gets ahold on my gun. Now I'm in a wold of **** because at this point I've completely lost control of the scene and person and would need a stroke of luck to come out on top. All of this just because I pulled a gun in a close quarters fight.

in my controlled environment (the safety of the back of the ambulance), pulling a gun is more often than not unnecessary, and downright dangerous. and I agree, it's a bad idea. for the exact reasons you just stated. what about when you out in the open? or an a housing project? or at an MVA scene? it's not exactly tight quarters...[/QUOTE]

 

[DrParasite]

I'm interested in actual data that would show that lethal force against EMS is a big enough problem that we need to arm healthcare workers, especially since violent crime is like half of what it was 20 years ago. "Anything can happen" is not a good enough reason for me.

Your right, we can whatif the situation. I mean, it's not like any EMTs or firefighters have ever been shot or shot in the line of duty.... oh wait, http://www.nydailynews.com/news/cri...ting-firefighter-long-island-article-1.122500 http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/01/us/dallas-firefighter-shooting/

it's no longer a whatif scenario if it's predicable, based on what has transpired in recent events. check out the other links for other times it's happened.

 

[NysEms2117]

so are you less of a retaliatory target when you are with your fiance? If someone were to retaliate, wouldn't you want to be able to protect her, should the need arise?

Nope, but I refuse to make the mistake that many others due, she has nothing to do with my work. I don't bring my work home to her, and if your telling me I should then I will say your dead wrong.

more than you would think, although it's typically an EMT who becomes a cop and says an EMT part time. I know at least one paramedic who worked in a ****ty city who worked in the next county over for several years after he got hired. and he ALWAYS had his off duty weapon on him, just in case.

I know AT LEAST one wall street trader, one mother, one teacher, one accountant, one lawyer, one legislator that carries too. Woopdy doo? I know for a fact that teacher even had it when he took a crap, just incase somebody broke into his house then...

I think you misunderstood. I didn't mean LEOs didn't shoot the person, but they don't practice at the range on a regular basis.

Please just stop. I'm on various Special weapons teams, including the state response team for active shooters, dangerous warrants, and have various other responsibilities. EVEN I wouldn't feel comfortable being an EMT and carrying a firearm. It just doesn't make sense, Lets have EMT's and medics have the responsibility of patient care, then for extra ****s and giggles give them the duties of a LEO? how about.... no.

but can you say that EVERY cop does?

I can say that every cop qualifies with the requirements set by their department/ governing body. But no I cant say that the town of 35 with 1 LEO in Utah's cop shoots and qualifies once every 3 months.

. I've been in quite a few dark housing projects, and gang infested apartment complexes and streets, where my the only thought running through my head was "how can i get out of here if things go south, and I'm so F***** if he decides to pull a weapon on me."

So have I, having grown up in Newark which i'm sure your aware of is not the best place to live. What I would tell you is, call for police, if police can't come, wait in your ambulance. I personally will be able to sleep at night knowing that refused to go into a dangerous situation without LE support. I'm in Law enforcement now and when I work EMS i call for LE support, and get asked why did you call us. It's their job, just like mine at the time is being an EMT.

I'll take you back to elementary ballistics. Bullets go through things... Remember that. Including people. and metal.
I really can't express how Closed minded you are here. If you want EMT's to carry firearms then follow this plan of action.
step 1: become a legislator.
step 2: Find somebody who will actually think your not completely ludicrous
step 3: enact the law.
step 4: watch as chaos unfolds when EMT's are accidentally discharging their firearms shooting people in the feet, hitting patients, oxygen tanks and whatever else is dangerous.

 

[NysEms2117]

Can you say the same for every patrol officer? and every supervising officer? How about the white shirts who are at a desk most of the day? what about the detectives? If you think every one of them spends 2 hours a week at the range, every week, than I have a bridge to sell you....

They shouldn't be held to the same requirements as SWAT or Fugitive apprehension units. Just like in EMS not everybody should be a Critical Care paramedic. They don't find themselves needing their firearms as much as the swat guys, who go looking for the person who you see on camera shooting somebody, they know they have a gun, they know they will shoot people. Your comparing apples to celery here.

 

[rescue1]

My point wasn't that Fire/EMS never gets shot at, it's finding the risk/benefit of being armed. Those examples you gave are of ambush shootings of responding emergency workers. I'm never going to approach an MVC with a drawn firearm just in case the guy inside is a crazy person. I accept that means that maybe, just maybe, one day someone will shoot me from their crashed car ambush. But conversely, that also means I'm not going to accidentally shoot someone who I thought had a gun and didn't. I can live (heh) with those odds.

Look, you and I (and NysEms2117) are never going to agree on this. Gun stuff is like taxes and abortion, arguing on the internet isn't going to change anyone's mind about it. Maybe Texas will pass a law allowing guns on ambulances and we'll have some actual data to look at, but until then we're just sort of arguing in circles.

 

[Old Tracker]

Another $.02, I have the feeling that no matter how justified a shooting by an EMT was, which won't be decided until long after the media has had a field, that the "optics" of it just plain suck. I can see an EMT taking out a badazz MS-13 character and the picture on the 10 0'clock news will be that guy at age 7 as an alter boy in some poverty ridden village down in El Salvador.

 

[EpiEMS]

that is your choice, and no one would fault you for it. You are also from Ct, a very anti-gun state (just like NJ and NY, and much of the NY Metro area), so I would imaging you walking into a room and seeing 10 legally armed individuals would make you uneasy. As opposed to being in texas, where they call that tuesday afternoon lunch.

The NY metro area is certainly anti-gun. I have no problem with legally armed individuals, but people carrying as some sort of strange self-imposed collateral duty while functioning as health care providers seems odd (and optically bad) to me...

 

[CALEMT]

what about when you out in the open? or an a housing project? or at an MVA scene? it's not exactly tight quarters...

I again go to common sense, scene safety, and situational awareness. The best weapon in your arsenal is the one in-between your ears. You use that, you survive.

 

[DrParasite]

They shouldn't be held to the same requirements as SWAT or Fugitive apprehension units. Just like in EMS not everybody should be a Critical Care paramedic. They don't find themselves needing their firearms as much as the swat guys, who go looking for the person who you see on camera shooting somebody, they know they have a gun, they know they will shoot people. Your comparing apples to celery here.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but they are still cops, have the LEO training, carry regularly (including in the ambulance if needed, such as if they transport a person under arrest). Your position was EMTs with CCWs lack the training to carry in the ambulance, but your OK with LEOs doing it, because they train a lot more. and I will agree, SWAT and Fugitive units do, all the time. But what I'm trying to get you to see (and you seem to be missing the point for some reason) is that not all cops are on those units, not all cops train as much as you claim they do, and your high standards (which you personally maintain) are not met by every cop out there.

Nope, but I refuse to make the mistake that many others due, she has nothing to do with my work. I don't bring my work home to her, and if your telling me I should then I will say your dead wrong.

not at all. I'm just asking a question, not telling you what you should or should not do

I know AT LEAST one wall street trader, one mother, one teacher, one accountant, one lawyer, one legislator that carries too. Woopdy doo? I know for a fact that teacher even had it when he took a crap, just incase somebody broke into his house then....

so your saying a cop shouldn't carry when he's off duty? Well, that would violate his department policies, so idk what to tell you. I gave you an example of a paramedic who did, because he was a full time LEO. I'm not sure why you brought up being armed when someone took a crap....

Please just stop. I'm on various Special weapons teams, including the state response team for active shooters, dangerous warrants, and have various other responsibilities.

makes sense why you go to the range a lot.... not sure where you are going with this...

EVEN I wouldn't feel comfortable being an EMT and carrying a firearm. It just doesn't make sense, Lets have EMT's and medics have the responsibility of patient care, then for extra ****s and giggles give them the duties of a LEO? how about.... no.

where did i say EMTs should have the duties of a LEO? outside of protecting themselves if the situation warranted, I never said that an EMT should be playing cop. out of curiosity, do you think that people who have CCW permits and carry all the time are playing cop too?

I can say that every cop qualifies with the requirements set by their department/ governing body. But no I cant say that the town of 35 with 1 LEO in Utah's cop shoots and qualifies once every 3 months.

so like I said, not every cop is as proficient as you. we can agree on this, and remember, we have to think about lowest common denominator....

So have I, having grown up in Newark which i'm sure your aware of is not the best place to live. What I would tell you is, call for police, if police can't come, wait in your ambulance. I personally will be able to sleep at night knowing that refused to go into a dangerous situation without LE support. I'm in Law enforcement now and when I work EMS i call for LE support, and get asked why did you call us. It's their job, just like mine at the time is being an EMT.

hahaahah. that's funny. have you ever called for the police in newark? they are soooo short staffed...... but since you mentioned it..... I'm not talking about entering a known unsafe scene. If it's unsafe, than sure, wait for PD.

I'm talking about (and using Newark as the example) going to the EMS call for the psych emergency, where it's not a known unsafe scene, and PD aren't responding (because it's a medical call), and when you get there, you find the patient armed with a knife... and he wants to use it on you.... you aren't in your ambulance, you are in a residence. sure, back out and call for help, and hopefully you can. what if you can't?

I'll take you back to elementary ballistics. Bullets go through things... Remember that. Including people. and metal.
I really can't express how Closed minded you are here. If you want EMT's to carry firearms then follow this plan of action.
step 1: become a legislator.
step 2: Find somebody who will actually think your not completely ludicrous
step 3: enact the law.
step 4: watch as chaos unfolds when EMT's are accidentally discharging their firearms shooting people in the feet, hitting patients, oxygen tanks and whatever else is dangerous.

A few states are already doing this, or have already done this, and I haven't heard any reports of step 4...........

Maybe it's all in your head?

how about this: since the law has already been passed (you can check out prior links that have which states have passed them), maybe you can show me reports of anything you predicted? I mean, seriously, since CCWs were passed, I'm sure those states that allow them have had a huge rise in shootings, right?

 

[Jim37F]

So...what situations would we be pulling a gun on someone? We're not cops, we're not going to be using a sidearm to try and force compliance or take scene control....What, are we going to shoot someone for not wanting to go to the hospital? No, it would only be for self defense right? And how often are we actually in a situation where we need a gun for self defense, where even if you have one bolstered simply retreating isn't the better move?

Don't get me wrong, I'm pro 2A and pro CCW in general, and a proper retention holster can keep a sidearm accessible while staying out of the way and whatnot, and I support being allowed to carry under those general principles which also (should, in a rational state, so that excludes my home turf ha) extend to the general public, but otherwise don't see any specific need for us in EMS to have a special exemption over regular Joe Schmoe to carry on duty...

I carried a sidearm pretty much daily on my deployments, where there was a real threat present, and was expected to engage it if/when it presented itself....according to the tactical situation of course....which mostly meant the sidearm was to allow me to fall back to my hooch where my rifle was secured.....similarly if the excrement hits the fan on scene, the purpose of a sidearm is to allow you(me, us) to get the hell out of Dodge.....really the only reason to draw on someone is if they're presenting an immediate threat of such caliber that you need to KILL them NOW to protect your own life (or your partners or even your patients life).....not to maim or wound, or threaten or get an irate family member or bystander who's screaming in your face and you just want them to back off......

Even working in Compton,I've never found myself in a situation where I wished i was carrying.

So no, I don't think we need any special reasonings to be allowed to carry beyond general self defense reasons which I support Pro 2A and carry rights for all in general.

 

[rescue1]

A few states are already doing this, or have already done this, and I haven't heard any reports of step 4...........

Serious question, are there states that allow EMS carry/prevent organizations from prohibiting it? I thought Texas was pushing for it for certain volunteer areas where the responders tended to carry (out in cattle country and such) to avoid concerns about securing weapons in a station or car, but I didn't think it passed yet.

EDIT: Oh wait I think Kansas has that law. Are they the only one?

 

[DrParasite]

let me make one thing perfectly clear, because there seems to be some confusion on where I stand on this position: I am not saying once a person gets their EMT card, we go "he's your stethoscope, here's your oxygen, here's your glock" nor am I saying "well, now that you have a gun, you can enter unsafe scenes, and we don't need police for that, we have our our guns." I am not saying that, nor have I ever said that.

What I am saying is why should a person who has a CCW permit, and carries 24/7, have to remove his or her weapon because they are getting on an ambulance? If the law says he can carry when he's driving to work, why can't he carry at work?

To quote what @Jim37F just said, " the only reason to draw on someone is if they're presenting an immediate threat of such caliber that you need to KILL them NOW to protect your own life (or your partners or even your patients life)" You're still leaving the scene, you're still calling for PD, your trying to retreat to safety so you can go home at the end of your shift. I won't speak for anyone else, but I want to go home at the end of all my shifts, with no more holes in my body than I started with.

And no, I don't, nor have I, ever carried a firearm on the ambulance.

 

[EpiEMS]

So no, I don't think we need any special reasonings to be allowed to carry beyond general self defense reasons which I support Pro 2A and carry rights for all in general.

What about EMS providers who already concealed carry in other aspects of their lives?

 

[DrParasite]

Serious question, are there states that allow EMS carry/prevent organizations from prohibiting it? I thought Texas was pushing for it for certain volunteer areas where the responders tended to carry (out in cattle country and such) to avoid concerns about securing weapons in a station or car, but I didn't think it passed yet.

EDIT: Oh wait I think Kansas has that law. Are they the only one?

West Virginia's house passed one by a vote of 96-2 , not sure what the senate said.http://www.guns.com/2017/03/20/west...bill-to-allow-first-responders-to-carry-guns/

"The legislation would allow first responders, namely EMTs and firefighters, to carry guns once they have completed firearms training equivalent to the training required for West Virginia State Police."

Texas passed the senate, the house is still pending https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...-endorses-letting-first-responders-carry-guns

I'm never going to approach an MVC with a drawn firearm just in case the guy inside is a crazy person. I accept that means that maybe, just maybe, one day someone will shoot me from their crashed car ambush.

I would hope not..... then again, neither do cops. But wouldn't be be nice to do something other than roll around on the ground bleeding as you continued to get shot at until the cops arrived?

 

[DesertMedic66]

Let's all just become cross trained as LEO/EMS/Fire. No need to stage for an unsafe scene. I can run right into burning buildings.

I would love to read the headline of the first EMT/Medic who is carrying and has a negligent discharge while on scene of a call or transporting in the back of the ambulance.

Sweet I have a gun. Now what am I supposed to do with it since I don't have handcuffs? Hold them at gun point until LEO arrives? For the areas where LEO has long response times am I supposed to sit on scene with my gun pointed at them? Am I supposed to ask nicely for them to be nice and get on my gurney so I can restrain them? At that point is it even considered a citizens arrest or am I going to need to power to arrest? Am I going to have to add handcuffs on my belt? I'm pressure sure I'm going to need a class on how to properly place handcuffs.

Or am I supposed to shoot blindly as I retreat from the scene to somewhere safe?

In these "top 20 most dangerous cities" since their EMS is not armed how am I not hearing daily stories of EMS being shot at, held hostage, shot, killed?

Instead of the time being put into training us to carry on duty that time could be much more useful IMO in training us in verbal tactics and self defense (DT4EMS as an example).

 

[RocketMedic]

I don't feel like I need a gun to safely do my job in Houston.

I do carry a gun off-duty because I fear criminals off-duty.