Self-Defense and EMS

DV_EMT · Sep 13, 2009

medic417 said:
As to age I got my first real firearm when I was 4 or 5 put dinner on the table with it shortly after.

right... i was making the point that I'm by no means undereducated in using a firearm. thats all

medic417 · Sep 13, 2009

DV_EMT said:
right... i was making the point that I'm by no means undereducated in using a firearm. thats all

But you took offense like I was saying you were not educated with a firearm.

Akulahawk · Sep 13, 2009

Defensive use of a firearm is VERY different from use of a firearm for putting dinner on the plate, or for recreational shooting. Realistically speaking, done right, a weapon that is concealed correctly is very quickly accessible and won't be detected until you need it, and with practice, all you'll need is about 1.5 seconds...

You have to be absolutely aware of your state and local laws regarding firearms and certain types of properties. In California, with a CCW, you can carry into a Hospital... if you're "made", they can ask you to leave. If you do NOT leave, you can be charged with trespassing. Period. Bars are a bit of a gray area. Best idea is not to... In some states, those 51% signs signify where you may not go armed. However, someone carrying on the LEOSA can legally ignore those signs, unless the private property is also posted "no firearms".

There's a LOT more to this.

As to shooting your patient... if my patient presents a threat of Great Bodily Injury/Lethal Force to me... I will stop that threat. That's my safety. I will not go to jail. I will not be charged with a crime. I MIGHT, however, eventually have to defend myself in civil court. Some states require that you retreat/exercise escape options before shooting... and they recognize that situations do develop where that is NOT possible. California does NOT have such a law. I am not required to retreat. I also have no civil immunity for any justified shoots.

Yes, I do know the law, especially is it pertains to this issue.

Whether or not you choose to be armed, is up to you. And in California, it can also be up to your Sheriff and you, if you choose to carry legally.

medic417 · Sep 13, 2009

Sasha heres one so pretty and pink even you would want to carry it.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/54613

VentMedic · Sep 13, 2009

DV_EMT said:
vent... you bring up a good point.... but what if its a bogus call and you arrive to what you think is a idk... broken leg... only to be met by a gun weilding psychopath with a history of drug abuse... your pretty much outta luck then? point black with a gun at you... meanwhile your partner could be either requesting backup... 2-5 minutes waiting... or shoot the guy with a concealed weapon and then treat him for a GSW... ?

This isn't the old western movies where you outdraw a patient. If they have a gun pointed at you, you had better come up with another alternative because if they want you dead, you will be dead. You won't be able to bend down and at them to wait while you get your weapon out of your ankle holster. If your partner is nearby, that will probably be the one shot by either you or the patient because YOU started making erractic and threatening movements.

I have been in these situations before and probably the one thing that saved me was the fact that I was unarmed and posed no threat. I've had partners who have acted like an idiot and have gotten the crap beat out of them. Personally, I even thought it to be justified because I would have beaten them later for putting me into such a situation by their cockiness of taking on a gang.

Honestly if you think being a Paramedic is about shooting someone, get into law enforcement instead. Even those in law enforcement do not charge into a situation such as some of you are describing with the intent on killing the person. Maybe instead of taking A class for a concealed weapons permit some should take a refresher on scene safety or DT4EMS's training program.

As to shooting your patient... if my patient presents a threat of Great Bodily Injury/Lethal Force to me... I will stop that threat. That's my safety. I will not go to jail. I will not be charged with a crime. I MIGHT, however, eventually have to defend myself in civil court. Some states require that you retreat/exercise escape options before shooting... and they recognize that situations do develop where that is NOT possible. California does NOT have such a law. I am not required to retreat. I also have no civil immunity for any justified shoots.

Don't be so sure as you will have to prove the threat existed. Even cops go to jail for what many believe to be a justified shooting. If you mistook a candy cane to be a gun and shot someone, you would be almost guaranteed housing in CA's prison system for a very long time. As well, you family would be the ones bearing the burdens of your mistake.

If you have been following the BART LEO case in Oakland, you can see how one mistake can kill another person and ruin not only this cop's career and life, as he will probably spend many years in prison, but also his family's lives. His fiance would be really smart if she just took the baby away and cut her losses from this guy even though most believe the shooting was "just a mistake". It still doesn't "justify" the shooting and taking a life in this situation. And, this is with LEO training.

Shishkabob · Sep 13, 2009

Yay for Texas castle doctrine.

Cory · Sep 13, 2009

*must hold back urge to argue all the clearly wrong points of the Texas castle doctorine*

Shishkabob · Sep 13, 2009

Oh no please, go ahead. I want to see what you believe the castle doctrine entails... The less googling for info the better.

Sasha · Sep 13, 2009

DV_EMT said:
1.Mother, Jugs, and Speed.... greatest movie ever

2. The EMT that was at gunpoint was compliant... he got shot with a12 gauge.

3. As for the getting out of dodge... what would you do? leave your partner for dead?? or try and keep it to 1 patient.. the crazed drug addict with a GSW?

I'm going to say this in the nicest way I possibly can, to get the point across....

THAT WAS A MOVIE. Do you really think it plays out like that in real life??? No sir. While I have not been personally held up yet, thank god, I have been a supervisor of a fastfood establishment that got robbed at gun point by two assailaints. The employee who grabbed the knife? Pistol whipped and had the heck beat out of him, the employee who remained calm, opened the registers and safe and gave the robbers what they want? Unharmed. Shaken up, without a cell phone, but unharmed.

I am friends with a couple police officers, they have all told me the same thing, do NOT make sudden movements, do not act agressively, give them what they want. They want drugs? Here's key to the drug box, heck, you can have keys to the entire ambulance if that is what you want!

And if it came down to that, yes, I would leave my partner. You are forgetting the number one thing of scene safety... YOUR safety. My safety depends on me getting away from the threat, not trying to confront it. One dead EMT is better than two dead EMTs.

Thank god where I work you are not allowed to have weapons on shift, if I ever worked at a place that did allow weapons, I would find out who is carrying and refuse to work with them.

Sasha · Sep 13, 2009

medic417 said:
Sasha heres one so pretty and pink even you would want to carry it.

http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/54613

Oooh. Pretty. It will match my taser thingy.

DV_EMT · Sep 13, 2009

Akulahawk... thank you for that post. It summarized up all the important info I would have spent lots of time researching.

Vent...yes... this isnt a western. and no... I have no thoughts about going in to Law Enforcement just because most of their time is spent either writing tickets or sitting in court. If i wanted shooting and action... i woulda gone into the military... but no... being a medic is what I want to do. I can shoot recreationally at other times to get my fill

Sasha... Yes you bring up some good points, and I sure as hell would glady give up my keys to an ambulance/drug box/ any of the above... but I guarentee you that if you were to stay calm and try your luck, I think you might be surprised at the outcome (for the better). I'd rather it be 1 dead crazy drug addict than both EMT's. Just because your compliant... doesn't necessarilly mean that your free of any harm. if your unarmed and you think that the crazed drug seeking gunman is just going to take the drugs and run... think again. people are illogical and make dumb decisions... just know that the playing field is a little more even when you too are armed.

medic417 · Sep 13, 2009

Sasha said:
Oooh. Pretty. It will match my taser thingy.

I knew you would like it.

ffemt8978 · Sep 13, 2009

Sasha said:
I'm going to say this in the nicest way I possibly can, to get the point across....

THAT WAS A MOVIE. Do you really think it plays out like that in real life??? No sir. While I have not been personally held up yet, thank god, I have been a supervisor of a fastfood establishment that got robbed at gun point by two assailaints. The employee who grabbed the knife? Pistol whipped and had the heck beat out of him, the employee who remained calm, opened the registers and safe and gave the robbers what they want? Unharmed. Shaken up, without a cell phone, but unharmed.

I am friends with a couple police officers, they have all told me the same thing, do NOT make sudden movements, do not act agressively, give them what they want. They want drugs? Here's key to the drug box, heck, you can have keys to the entire ambulance if that is what you want!

And what do you do if they want your life or something else from you?

And if it came down to that, yes, I would leave my partner. You are forgetting the number one thing of scene safety... YOUR safety. My safety depends on me getting away from the threat, not trying to confront it. One dead EMT is better than two dead EMTs.

Thank god where I work you are not allowed to have weapons on shift, if I ever worked at a place that did allow weapons, I would find out who is carrying and refuse to work with them.

That is your personal choice...but I'm curious as to how you think you could find out they are carrying?

Akulahawk · Sep 13, 2009

I'll put my responses in line so that my responses to what can be clearly seen.

VentMedic said:
This isn't the old western movies where you outdraw a patient. If they have a gun pointed at you, you had better come up with another alternative because if they want you dead, you will be dead. You won't be able to bend down and at them to wait while you get your weapon out of your ankle holster. If your partner is nearby, that will probably be the one shot by either you or the patient because YOU started making erractic and threatening movements.
You'll never be able to out-draw a weapon that is already drawn. Ankle holsters are too slow. You survive by staying calm and moving with purpose. You do not pose a threat.
I have been in these situations before and probably the one thing that saved me was the fact that I was unarmed and posed no threat. I've had partners who have acted like an idiot and have gotten the crap beat out of them. Personally, I even thought it to be justified because I would have beaten them later for putting me into such a situation by their cockiness of taking on a gang.
Your partners who acted like an idiot probably weren't appropriately trained for the situation... and they chose poorly for the situation. You don't want to choose the wrong solution...
Honestly if you think being a Paramedic is about shooting someone, get into law enforcement instead. Even those in law enforcement do not charge into a situation such as some of you are describing with the intent on killing the person. Maybe instead of taking A class for a concealed weapons permit some should take a refresher on scene safety or DT4EMS's training program.
About the only time LE charges into a situation with even a remote intent of killing someone is in a SWAT incident, and even then they'd rather take a person into custody than shoot. The decision to shoot is one not ever to be taken lightly... and I'm friends with a very good POST instructor who teaches LEOs how use force as part of their job. He advocates the same thing. Try to defuse the situation. Cooperate. Know your limitations. Shooting is a last resort. Don't miss...there are lawyers attached to every bullet you launch...

Don't be so sure as you will have to prove the threat existed. Even cops go to jail for what many believe to be a justified shooting. If you mistook a candy cane to be a gun and shot someone, you would be almost guaranteed housing in CA's prison system for a very long time. As well, you family would be the ones bearing the burdens of your mistake.
I'm more than aware of that, in fact, probably more so aware of that than most... even those here in this forum. The cops that go to jail for what is perceived to be a "justified shoot" is shown in court to have not been a good shoot. The details surrounding the shoot are almost never fully released to the public.
If you have been following the BART LEO case in Oakland, you can see how one mistake can kill another person and ruin not only this cop's career and life, as he will probably spend many years in prison, but also his family's lives. His fiance would be really smart if she just took the baby away and cut her losses from this guy even though most believe the shooting was "just a mistake". It still doesn't "justify" the shooting and taking a life in this situation. And, this is with LEO training.

The guy in the BART case is going spend a VERY long time in prison because he committed (at the very least) manslaughter. He drew his service weapon and shot a restrained person. There is a reason why LEO's tazers are often put in holsters on the opposite side of a firearm and when they do that, they're trained to use the "weak" hand to discharge the tazer. Though I believe that the officer didn't intend to shoot the guy, I fully believe that he committed negligent homicide. Murder, no. No intent to kill.

Sasha said:
I'm going to say this in the nicest way I possibly can, to get the point across....

THAT WAS A MOVIE. Do you really think it plays out like that in real life??? No sir. While I have not been personally held up yet, thank god, I have been a supervisor of a fastfood establishment that got robbed at gun point by two assailaints. The employee who grabbed the knife? Pistol whipped and had the heck beat out of him, the employee who remained calm, opened the registers and safe and gave the robbers what they want? Unharmed. Shaken up, without a cell phone, but unharmed.

I am friends with a couple police officers, they have all told me the same thing, do NOT make sudden movements, do not act agressively, give them what they want. They want drugs? Here's key to the drug box, heck, you can have keys to the entire ambulance if that is what you want!
I'm friends with several LEOs and a POST Use of Force instructor. Most of the time... that's exactly how it should happen. They want something? Give it to them. That's what insurance is for. That being said, someone wants to hurt/kill me? Different story. Insurance can not replace a life.
And if it came down to that, yes, I would leave my partner. You are forgetting the number one thing of scene safety... YOUR safety. My safety depends on me getting away from the threat, not trying to confront it. One dead EMT is better than two dead EMTs.
Even if I happen to be armed... that's my first instinct. Retreat. Escape. Evade.
Thank god where I work you are not allowed to have weapons on shift, if I ever worked at a place that did allow weapons, I would find out who is carrying and refuse to work with them.As such, that is your choice. That's fine. My safety comes first,too. To that end, the only person that knows I'm armed... is me.

Akulahawk · Sep 13, 2009

You're welcome, DV EMT. Please do recognize that my posts in this matter come from, many hours of learning these issues.

Sasha · Sep 13, 2009

How many more people must be shot, killed, or injured before you realize that sometimes cooperation is not always the best policy?

More than a couple of those articles are no longer available. However, where would adding a concealed weapon in those situations would've remedied the situation or prvodied a better outcome??

Also the ones that were still available to be read did not happen like the situation described by DV EMT out of Mother, Jugs, and Speed.

They can't trust EMTs to handle a glucometer correctly, and you want to arm them? How many do you think would get an extra courage boost and charge into situations they wouldn't have before without the knowledge that they have a gun hidden on their person?

The person already has a gun on you, you're behind the ball, and you are going to draw and shoot before they pull the trigger?

Good luck, cowboy.

medic417 · Sep 13, 2009

Sasha said:
The person already has a gun on you, you're behind the ball, and you are going to draw and shoot before they pull the trigger?

Good luck, cowboy.

LOL. Even though I live in the wild west we normally don't have wild west TV style fast draws at high noon.

Actually in most cases you are going to duck and hope they miss which most shooters do when firing at a moving target. Draw your firearm. Remain under cover and only use your firearm if they then advance to finish the job. At this point they do not know you are armed so you now have the advantage as they think you are a sitting duck. They will probably boldly approach and not be prepared thus allowing you time to draw a bead and fire multiple times.

Yes I have LE experience. And yes I do not think all EMS people should be able to carry but again most of the ones that I would not allow to carry I would also like to see out of EMS. I have no problem with a person deciding they will not carry, that is their choice to decide just as it is the choice to carry by those of us that are educated in the use of firearms in self defense.

VentMedic · Sep 13, 2009

ffemt8978 said:
That is your personal choice...but I'm curious as to how you think you could find out they are carrying?

In my area that would be very easy when the LEOs arrest him/her at the entrance of the hospital when attempting to pass through the metal detector. We take this very seriously. We were not allowed to carry even during the riots although that is not to say we didn't have alternative weapons in mind but with the reasonable protection we received from LEOs and the Guard during that time, I did not feel the need to shoot someone.

You can also surf up the incidents in CA that have occured recently where weapons were brought into the hospital to where others were attacked. Unfortunately, in couple of the incidents the weapons were taken from LEOs by the criminals. So when a trained person gets their weapon taken from them in a fairly controlled setting, imagine what would happen to an EMT(P) who just has a carrying permit class for "training". You can also surf up a few incidents where healthcare professionals, including EMTs, who have used guns on others to kill them for personal reasons and not for protection. Also, if you look up the stats, there are actually more incidents of violence against healthcare workers that occur within the walls of the hospital than against those in EMS.

Using a few tragic incidents as an example for those poorly trained to carry weapons on an ambulance is just not the correct way of justifying the use of deadly force by EMT(P)s. There is no way a concealed weapons class prepares on to aggressively use deadly force as part of their job. When you are carrying that weapon on the job with the intent of using deadly force and not just for personal protection as a layperson, you do change the perception of the courts when you do kill someone as "part of your job".

I would also bet that those wanting to carry weapons probably work in a low crime area and have not seen what a gun can do or have only been faced with a "violent" situation from their sofa while watching it on TV. In real life you learn to respect weapons. You learn the resources in your area and how to identify bad situations. You learn about human behavior and watch for signs. You are not afraid to ask for backup. You learn when to keep your mouth shut and retreat instead of being a bad arse wanting to confront someone headon at scene for a cool "take down". The one thing carrying a weapon might do is make you more cocky to go into situations you shouldn't without backup. That will only get you and/or your partner dead.

There are many, many more EMT(P)s killed in ambulance accidents than there are by firearms. Yet, few feel it is their right to ask their employer for safer equipment, better training or want to rat on their drunk partners. Why isn't there more passion in that topic? Probably because carrying a gun is romanticized and glamourized by the movies and it gives one "empowerment".

medic417 · Sep 13, 2009

VentMedic said:
In my area that would be very easy when the LEOs arrest him/her at the entrance of the hospital when attempting to pass through the metal detector. .

Actually not a problem. Have lock boxes for each person front and back for personal items. Once at hospital lock it away. It can be done w.o drawing attn. I am in and out of our lock cabinets all day so my partner would never know.

Akulahawk · Sep 13, 2009

Sasha said:
More than a couple of those articles are no longer available. However, where would adding a concealed weapon in those situations would've remedied the situation or prvodied a better outcome??

Also the ones that were still available to be read did not happen like the situation described by DV EMT out of Mother, Jugs, and Speed.

They can't trust EMTs to handle a glucometer correctly, and you want to arm them? How many do you think would get an extra courage boost and charge into situations they wouldn't have before without the knowledge that they have a gun hidden on their person?

The person already has a gun on you, you're behind the ball, and you are going to draw and shoot before they pull the trigger?

Good luck, cowboy.

Sasha, appropriate firearms training is like EMS training. Just as you wouldn't trust an EMT with a glucometer, I wouldn't trust someone with a firearm... without knowing their level of training. The people that choose to carry a firearm do so for their own protection. They know they're not cops and they know that they shouldn't go places armed that they shouldn't go unarmed. As to your assertion that someone would be dumb enough to attempt to out-draw someone with an already drawn weapon... In my case, I know it takes about 1.5 seconds for me to draw and shoot. If I don't have that much time, my weapon stays in it's holster. Within a certain distance, I can move fast enough to get ahead of your OODA loop and relieve YOU of your firearm. It's not some kind of Bruce Lee/Steven Segal thing... If I have to commit to doing that, it means that I'm in a situation where my choices are simple. Do something and perhaps live or do nothing and die. It's a survival choice. Nothing more than that.

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