Self-Defense and EMS

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Lifeguards For Life said:
I don't know if all know and understand the use of lethal force drawing a gun. We were taught never to shoot to disarm, impede an attack, or anything other than lethal force. three shots one to the head, one to the neck, one to the thoracic area. every single time.
Use of a fire arm to disarm, impede a threat, threaten is inappropriate and dangerous use of a firearm. I believe some know this, but am not sure everyone rallying to carry full understands the implications and responsibilities of carrying by proffesion
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I was always taght either Two the chest, and one to the head. Or 2 to the T-zone in the head, and one in the chest.
 
If what you wrote is true...

Lifeguards For Life said:
"three shots one to the head, one to the neck, one to the thoracic area. every single time."


Then whoever taught you to shoot is an idiot.

Ask any defensive shooting instructor where you should be aiming, if they tell you the head or neck, find another instructor.

Center of body mass is the number one aiming point in virtually any type of shooting situation.

And you never, ever use the number of shots fired to determine when to stop shooting, you continue shooting until the threat is eliminated, that whole "3 shots" "double tap" nonsense is just that, nonsense.

I'd be very curious as to how many of the folks in this thread have ever actually drawn down on someone or actually used a gun in a defensive situation. Given some of the nonsense written here I'd guess that very few if any of you have.
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Lifeguards For Life said:
I don't know if all know and understand the use of lethal force drawing a gun. We were taught never to shoot to disarm, impede an attack, or anything other than lethal force. three shots one to the head, one to the neck, one to the thoracic area. every single time.
Use of a fire arm to disarm, impede a threat, threaten is inappropriate and dangerous use of a firearm. I believe some know this, but am not sure everyone rallying to carry full understands the implications and responsibilities of carrying by proffesion
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LFL:

I've been taught aiming and shooting at Center Mass. If they aren't going down, then a head shot (body armor, etc)

John E said:
Center of body mass is the number one aiming point in virtually any type of shooting situation.

And you never, ever use the number of shots fired to determine when to stop shooting, you continue shooting until the threat is eliminated, that whole "3 shots" "double tap" nonsense is just that, nonsense.
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I concur. That said, I was taught a drill where you fired a double tap, then the gun goes to low-ready and you scan with your eyes for other threats, then engage whatever else is a threat. Personally, I worry that if I'm too used to standing on a "square range" shooting the cardboard in front of me and nowhere else, that I might end up with tunnel vision and get myself killed for it.

John E said:
I'd be very curious as to how many of the folks in this thread have ever actually drawn down on someone or actually used a gun in a defensive situation. Given some of the nonsense written here I'd guess that very few if any of you have.
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Never had to. Not really looking forward to the possibility, but I acknowledge the need and accept it as part of carrying a firearm.
 
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HotelCo said:
I was always taght either Two the chest, and one to the head. Or 2 to the T-zone in the head, and one in the chest.
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I've been through a bit of training by Uncle Sam and a certain states Dept. of Corrections and all my training has been shooting center of mass. But then again I'm not SWAT/TAC or a sniper.
 
VentMedic said:
If your weapon was that concealed you would probably have a difficult time retrieving it in an emergency situation. If proven you had time to escape then you intent as to why you used your weapon might be viewed differently in a court of law. You could then be considered the aggressor.
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Vent,

I went over this in an earlier post. There are many ways of carrying concealed that allow for relatively quick presentation, but are very discreet carry methods. This video shows a common concept in CCW holsters - the "tuckable" feature. The holster sits inside the waistband and the shirt can be tucked in over the firearm. Allows for very quick presentation, and is very well concealed.
[youtube]DaWyS3cTMHA[/youtube]
 
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VentMedic said:
The difference between the equipment used by doctors and guns is the intended purpose.



Your remarks have been pretty consistent throughout this thread.







If you want to carry a gun, you should be able to discuss this with your employer. There are the ones who also will be paying for whatever mistakes you make. Those who can not have this discussion with their employer are cowards and probably have no business carrying a gun which will just give them a false sense of security or courage that they don't have. These would be the people most likely to shoot at their own shadow and hit their partner or some other bystander.
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OK you caught me being sarcastic about a topic that has been beaten to death. I had actually hoped it would lead to a quick lock. Sadly it has been a repeat of the same things with many twisting words of others. And you choose to only qoute those and not the ones where I got serious except for as discussed next.

As to the last statement you quoted of mine the official policy is no policy as it is more protection for the company. Those that say no or yes set themselves up more so than those that say nothing.

Firearms give no false sense of security or courage to those that are properly educated. It honestly leads you to be more cautious as you are reminded each time you put it on that you have the potential to not be coming home. I probably request LE more often than most Paramedics I have worked with because I prefer not to have to defend myself. But in saying that I have gone to the little old persons house for the lift assist for the 100th time this year just to find a drunken family member brewing for a fight waving a knife wildly. Thankfully it was where I could still back out safely and request LE to get them controlled. Had I not had the education, had I not reflected on the potential dangers of every call I might have stepped right into a knife blade by walking in like most Paramedics oblivious to everything but their patients.
 
John E said:
Lifeguards For Life said:
I'd be very curious as to how many of the folks in this thread have ever actually drawn down on someone or actually used a gun in a defensive situation. Given some of the nonsense written here I'd guess that very few if any of you have.
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Sadly I have had to draw on many an occasion. Thankfully that action alone has stopped what could have been a bad situation with someone losing a family member.
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medic417 said:
Firearms give no false sense of security or courage to those that are properly educated.
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I do not consider a concealed weapons course which can be taught at many of the local trade shows in an afternoon and then a few rounds on a range as proper education. Knowing how to shoot a gun is very different from when to use deadly force on the job. Remember, you are entering the other person's territory and not them entering your house. Ever wonder why LEOs call for backup or SWAT? Their training tells the to avoid being stupid in unknown situations.


I went over this in an earlier post. There are many ways of carrying concealed that allow for relatively quick presentation, but are very discreet carry methods. This video shows a common concept in CCW holsters - the "tuckable" feature. The holster sits inside the waistband and the shirt can be tucked in over the firearm. Allows for very quick presentation, and is very well concealed.
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Jon, let's be realistic. When you are entering a house, you have your hands full of medical equipment. You do not have your hands on your holster. Watch how LEOs approach a situation. They are not carrying two EMS bags when approaching a car to give a ticket.
 
VentMedic said:
I do not consider a concealed weapons course which can be taught at many of the local trade shows in an afternoon and then a few rounds on a range as proper education. Knowing how to shoot a gun is very different from when to use deadly force on the job. Remember, you are entering the other person's territory and not them entering your house. Ever wonder why LEOs call for backup or SWAT? Their training tells the to avoid being stupid in unknown situations.




Jon, let's be realistic. When you are entering a house, you have your hands full of medical equipment. You do not have your hands on your holster. Watch how LEOs approach a situation. They are not carrying two EMS bags when approaching a car to give a ticket.
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Vent lets be serious how often has it been said that we will only be trying to draw in defense, and also probably from behind what ever we have tried to hide behind. Again we are not going wild west here.

Enough of this bull shut the dang thread down before some of us say things that get us banned.
 
medic417 said:
Vent lets be serious how often has it been said that we will only be trying to draw in defense, and also probably from behind what ever we have tried to hide behind. Again we are not going wild west here.

Enough of this bull shut the dang thread down before some of us say things that get us banned.
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And let's be serious as to how realistic it is to be ready to reach for your ankle holster while carrying EMS equipment.

And, how many have trained under stress?

I have been shot at and none of us felt like sticking around to shoot back and that includes the macho FF types. We were all under or behind the fire truck waiting to haul butt out of there. I have also counted the bullet holes in my ambulance after the riots and in no way would I have wanted to confront any of those shooting at us. I consider myself a good shot on the range but I know now what adrenaline does when someone is actually under fire. Unless you actively train for these situations, you have NO business carrying on the job where your own actions could get yourself and others injured.
 
VentMedic said:
And let's be serious as to how realistic it is to be ready to reach for your ankle holster while carrying EMS equipment.

And, how many have trained under stress?

I have been shot at and none of us felt like sticking around to shoot back and that includes the macho FF types. We were all under or behind the fire truck waiting to haul butt out of there. I have also counted the bullet holes in my ambulance after the riots and in no way would I have wanted to confront any of those shooting at us. I consider myself a good shot on the range but I know now what adrenaline does when someone is actually under fire. Unless you actively train for these situations, you have NO business carrying on the job where your own actions could get yourself and others injured.
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But while pinned down would it not have been nice to calmly pull your firearm and be ready had the shooter approached to finish the job.

And again if you can evade evade.
 
medic417 said:
But while pinned down would it not have been nice to calmly pull your firearm and be ready had the shooter approached to finish the job.

And again if you can evade evade.
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In a riot situation you will have a dozen people that will be armed. It would be wise not to attract attention as you can not kill all of them.
 
And this one has run it's course.

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