Self-Defense and EMS

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medichopeful said:
Problem with the ankle holster is that if you are bending down or kneeling, it may become visible. And it may be easy for someone to grab if you are kneeling next to them while they are supine or prone.
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2 words.... biometric safety
 
Many of you say that a LEO (assumed off duty) acting as an EMT/paramedic would most likely not be allowed to perform duties of a LEO.

Aren't LEOs sworn officers at all times (24/7/365)? If a law is broken in their presence, no matter if they are on or off duty, don't they have the authority to detain them? If both questions are true, then doesn't said LEO have the authority to carry a firearm and act accordingly?
 
DV_EMT said:
50/50 chance.... pull the trigger.... or don't. Frankly, I think any 5150 with a gun has a higher chance of pulling the trigger. Lets face it.... Mentally unstable with a weapon. I say you have the right as EMS to have a gun to defend yourself. If police arent on scene because the "nature of the call" was something different than what was expected... you should have the right to protect yourself. Kevlar and all that is great... but a shot to the femoral/neck/ or head and your screwed (thank god for a partner). I'd rather not risk the chance that, "they might not shoot"... cause what they can do is erratic and usually illogical.
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If you know this patient is a 5150 or has been dispatched as a mentally unstable patient, you should already be requesting backup. An EMT or Paramedic in the state of Calfornia can not place someone on a 5150 hold or even call that person a "5150" until the paperwork is signed by the LEO or mental health practitioner. There is no reason for you to be approaching this person with a gun if you already know in advance what or who you are dealing with. As well, you could be approaching John Q Citizen who also has a concealed weapons permit and is defending himself against another threat by either that person or someone else. You could end up killing this person instead. Also, unlike what you see on TV where someone accurately shoots someone's gun out of their hand or just "wounds" them, if someone is attacking you, deadly force will be your intent. You are not going to mess around just aiming to knick them in the shin. If you have that much time, they should be looking at the tail lights of your ambulance and not down the barrel of your gun.

Again in this situation you may be perceived as the aggressor if you know you are entering a dangerous situation and you know you have your weapon to use.

Also, if LEOs all had the same attitudes as some on this thread about approaching every situation, there would be a lot of dead bodies around and cops in jail. This is why they receive the training they do with their firearm and how to approach various situations. They know what will happen to them if they pull the trigger of a gun either intentional or by mistake. Those who have no training in the use of deadly force or believe their very few hours at the gun range or concealed weapons class qualifies them at determining which situation they can handle on their own with their gun will be the ones who are most likely to do harm to innocent bystanders including their own partner.


Many of you say that a LEO (assumed off duty) acting as an EMT/paramedic would most likely not be allowed to perform duties of a LEO.

Aren't LEOs sworn officers at all times (24/7/365)? If a law is broken in their presence, no matter if they are on or off duty, don't they have the authority to detain them? If both questions are true, then doesn't said LEO have the authority to carry a firearm and act accordingly?
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As for this situation, that would dependent entirely upon the state and local regulations. This is why PDs want to know where people are moonlighting so there may not be any conflict in their sworn duties. We have had LEOs work for private ambulances and even in hospitals as EMT(P)s and RNs but were specifically told they were not to carry their weapon. Both of the employers and the employee were aware and agreed to those terms. If it is still within the realm of Public Safety and it is again known to all parties, then it may be permissable. I also do not agree that LEOs or those with concealed weapon permits should carry their weapons at all times which includes into bars or any public outing where there is a potential for intoxication.
 
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DV_EMT said:
50/50 chance.... pull the trigger.... or don't. Frankly, I think any 5150 with a gun has a higher chance of pulling the trigger. Lets face it.... Mentally unstable with a weapon. I say you have the right as EMS to have a gun to defend yourself. If police arent on scene because the "nature of the call" was something different than what was expected... you should have the right to protect yourself. Kevlar and all that is great... but a shot to the femoral/neck/ or head and your screwed (thank god for a partner). I'd rather not risk the chance that, "they might not shoot"... cause what they can do is erratic and usually illogical.
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If they are truly behaving erratically, what the heck are you doing there without police?

Sorry, I still believe the time you waste trying to pull out your gun and shoot is time that can be used escaping the situation, and it also will provoke someone into firing their weapon or stabbing you with their knife or fork or what have you. Your ankle holster, you will have to bend to reach it, pull it out from behind your pants leg, bring it up, (hopefully disengage the safety) and pull the trigger.

I pray to god none of my partners are ever like some on this thread, they will end up getting us both killed should a firearm situation ever arise.
 
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vent... you bring up a good point.... but what if its a bogus call and you arrive to what you think is a idk... broken leg... only to be met by a gun weilding psychopath with a history of drug abuse... your pretty much outta luck then? point black with a gun at you... meanwhile your partner could be either requesting backup... 2-5 minutes waiting... or shoot the guy with a concealed weapon and then treat him for a GSW... ?
 
DV_EMT said:
vent... you bring up a good point.... but what if its a bogus call and you arrive to what you think is a idk... broken leg... only to be met by a gun weilding psychopath with a history of drug abuse... your pretty much outta luck then? point black with a gun at you... meanwhile your partner could be either requesting backup... 2-5 minutes waiting... or shoot the guy with a concealed weapon and then treat him for a GSW... ?
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Treat YOU for a GSW you mean. He already has his gun out and pointed and you think you're going to outshoot him??
 
Sasha said:
Treat YOU for a GSW you mean. He already has his gun out and pointed and you think you're going to outshoot him??
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no... if your partner goes in and is held up at point blank and you see that from a distance (because your getting equptment or whatever)... you could wait it out and hope to dear god that LEO's show up quick... or... take matters into your own hands.. try to sharpshoot the guy who has your partner at gunpoint.

I was taught with regard to scene safety is 1. yourself 2. your partner and 3. your pt. So I'm pretty sure that trying to save your partner by shooting the pt. follows the rules of scene safety (even though the scene wasnt safe to begin with)
 
Sasha said:
Treat YOU for a GSW you mean. He already has his gun out and pointed and you think you're going to outshoot him??
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EXACTLY!!!

To be honest, in most situations where putting up your hands doesn't stop the shooter, then you don't really have a chance anyway. Sad, but true.
 
DV_EMT said:
no... if your partner goes in and is held up at point blank and you see that from a distance (because your getting equptment or whatever)... you could wait it out and hope to dear god that LEO's show up quick... or... take matters into your own hands.. try to sharpshoot the guy who has your partner at gunpoint.

I was taught with regard to scene safety is 1. yourself 2. your partner and 3. your pt. So I'm pretty sure that trying to save your partner by shooting the pt. follows the rules of scene safety (even though the scene wasnt safe to begin with)
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Who is to say you can aim well? Who is to say you will be able to get to him? Don't you think the shooter will have already thought about you?

I would be more worried that I would miss, and he would end up shooting your partner out of fear. Or that I would miss and fire into my partner.

This is when you wait for LEO. Terrible things happen, and not much can be done to maake them better. But there are ebdless possiblities for what could make it worse, and pulling a gun is one of those.
 
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Cory said:
This is when you wait for LEO. Terrible things happen, and not much can be done to maake them better. But there are ebdless possiblities for what could make it worse, and pulling a gun is one of those.
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true... there are a lot of ifs/ands/buts... I just am playing devils advocate and seeing what other people think about the situation. If it were me I'd get good cover and try to save my partner (i know i have a good shot). I mean... it may sound moronic and/or dangerous to some... but If i knew I had a chance to save my partner... i'd do it (in the safest way I knew possible.)
 
DV_EMT said:
no... if your partner goes in and is held up at point blank and you see that from a distance (because your getting equptment or whatever)... you could wait it out and hope to dear god that LEO's show up quick... or... take matters into your own hands.. try to sharpshoot the guy who has your partner at gunpoint.

I was taught with regard to scene safety is 1. yourself 2. your partner and 3. your pt. So I'm pretty sure that trying to save your partner by shooting the pt. follows the rules of scene safety (even though the scene wasnt safe to begin with)
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What movie did you see that in? You do know when you are "held up" the best thing to do is cooperate amd give them what they want right? You will also go to jail for it. No where in any defense class o textbook are you told to shoot your patient. In your scenario you have the option of getting out of dodge.
 
DV_EMT said:
true... there are a lot of ifs/ands/buts... I just am playing devils advocate and seeing what other people think about the situation. If it were me I'd get good cover and try to save my partner (i know i have a good shot). I mean... it may sound moronic and/or dangerous to some... but If i knew I had a chance to save my partner... i'd do it (in the safest way I knew possible.)
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And if ANYTHING goes wrong, be prepared to be tried at the full extent of the law. Just because you are in public safety does not mean you will be treated like an LEO, you have no more legality to shoot than any civillian.

I would never own a gun because I simply believe that I wouldn't be able to outshoot someone with a gun already drawn, and if I shot anyone who didn't already have a gun to my head I would have n defense in court. It is a lose lose situatuion, and it would be even worse in my mind to walk around claiming myself a medical professional who carries a gun.
 
Sasha said:
What movie did you see that in? You do know when you are "held up" the best thing to do is cooperate and give them what they want right? You will also go to jail for it. No where in any defense class o textbook are you told to shoot your patient. In your scenario you have the option of getting out of dodge.
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1.Mother, Jugs, and Speed.... greatest movie ever

2. The EMT that was at gunpoint was compliant... he got shot with a12 gauge.

3. As for the getting out of dodge... what would you do? leave your partner for dead?? or try and keep it to 1 patient.. the crazed drug addict with a GSW?
 
It is obvious those that are not familiar with and educated in proper use of firearms. So no point to what if this. If you are content to be defenseless I'm happy for you. If you choose to be able to defend yourself I am happy for you. There now lets all hold hands and sing some stupid song.
 
You shoulodn't be worried about packing heat on call, you should be worried about the pt.
 
Cory said:
You shoulodn't be worried about packing heat on call, you should be worried about the pt.
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I'm more worried for my life than my patients life. Every. Single. Time.
 
medic417 said:
It is obvious those that are not familiar with and educated in proper use of firearms. So no point to what if this. If you are content to be defenseless I'm happy for you. If you choose to be able to defend yourself I am happy for you. There now lets all hold hands and sing some stupid song.
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I've been shooting and hunting since I was 16. Trust me. I know firearms and proper safety/use. Not trying to start a fight... merely making a statement to your "judgement" of my knowledge of firearms and their safety/storage.

anyhow... good topic and good responses everyone. I like getting everyones point of view based on this senario.
 
DV_EMT said:
I've been shooting and hunting since I was 16. Trust me. I know firearms and proper safety/use. Not trying to start a fight... merely making a statement to your "judgement" of my knowledge of firearms and their safety/storage.

anyhow... good topic and good responses everyone. I like getting everyones point of view based on this senario.
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UMM was not referring to people that are in favor of the educated having concealed carry. Remember I am for concealed carry.

As to age I got my first real firearm when I was 4 or 5 put dinner on the table with it shortly after.
 
medic417 said:
UMM was not referring to people that are in favor of the educated having concealed carry. Remember I am for concealed carry.

As to age I got my first real firearm when I was 4 or 5 put dinner on the table with it shortly after.
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Remind me not to piss you off :ph34r::P
 
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