Concealed Carry

[JPINFV]

Absolutely there are. Previously you called out daedalus for his refusal to treat a PT with an unsecured firearm. I think that's the crux. Most people with this objection have no objection to the presence of firearms, just unsecured firearms.

That unfortunately leads to comments about "pansies" who "better hope they never have a scene in a gun shop or they'll be there for a month securing the scene"... (I'd love to see the gun shop that keeps its weapons and ammo unsecured, so I could point the Dept of Licensing at them to lose their registration...)

Then the question is, "what is an unsecure firearm and what steps can someone who is not trained nor comfortable with firearms do to secure said fire arm. Is a firearm secure as long as it's in the holster of a patient who is legally able to carry it? Not in reach, but still possibly loaded because the crew is unable/willing to secure it (on that note, I'd rather not have providers who are unfamiliar and uncomfortable with firearms attempting to secure firearms.)? How about if the holster can be easily removed with the firearm still inside?

What I don't think is a valid answer is refusing to treat someone who is legally carrying a fire arm until police arrive (essentially delaying care for several minutes if police aren't already on scene) or leaving the fire arm on scene unless the scene is the patient's house.

As far as gun shops, plenty of gun shops have their long arms 'unsecure' on display in racks on the wall behind the counter during business hours. Now the ammunition isn't anywhere near it, but it isn't "secure" in the strictest sense of the word.

 

[Akulahawk]

The phrase "unsecured firearm" needs to be better defined as to WHAT an unsecured firearm is. To some, it is any firearm not in LE/Mil hands. To some, that is a firearm loose in the environment and it's owner is not around.

I have no issues treating someone who is legally armed. I would want the weapon secured in a safe or appropriate lock box, mostly to prevent it from being lost in the shuffle that the patient's belongings go through, or have hospital security panic and call Law Enforcement and have the patient go through the whole rigamarole of getting a legally owned firearm returned to them from Law Enforcement. In California, that is not an easy process, and LE agencies generally loathe to return firearms to their rightful owners. I know a few agencies that loathe the paperwork process... and would be happy to return the weapon, but they're very few in number.

As for ammunition: I've been able to pick up boxes of shotgun shells right off the shelf... That's hardly secure! Most rifle and pistol ammo I've seen is on shelves behind the counter. Not locked, but just behind the counter. Secure? Not really, but it doesn't have to be locked away like the Fort Knox gold either.

 

[firecoins]

An unsecured firearm is any firearm that an unauthorized person can pick up and fire.

A gun shop, a shooting range or a police station are potential scenes. Usually such places will have weapons secured. Hopefully you will not be there to treat gun related injures in which case securing weapons and the scene in general will be a priority. Hopefully any injuries will be accidental and not intentional. Either way, you may not be able to distinguish this until later.

I am comfortable with a weapon at home provided we can lock it up. This way it won't become a problem if the scene is somehow deceptive with reguards to our safety. Not everyone is honest. The patient need not be the bad guy either.

 

[Akulahawk]

An unsecured firearm is any firearm that an unauthorized person can pick up and fire.

A gun shop, a shooting range or a police station are potential scenes. Usually such places will have weapons secured. Hopefully you will not be there to treat gun related injures in which case securing weapons and the scene in general will be a priority. Hopefully any injuries will be accidental and not intentional. Either way, you may not be able to distinguish this until later.

I am comfortable with a weapon at home provided we can lock it up. This way it won't become a problem if the scene is somehow deceptive with reguards to our safety. Not everyone is honest. The patient need not be the bad guy either.

That's about the best definition I've read so far. As to potential scenes, I'd also add any street, highway, or sidewalk. Any scene where firearms are known to be involved would probably already have LE on scene prior to my arrival there. Your next AMI patient could be carrying and just happened to become symptomatic in a parking lot... her weapon isn't the problem, it just happens to be there too. As long as her weapon stays where it's supposed to be, I have no issue with it at all.

 

[firecoins]

her weapon isn't the problem, it just happens to be there too. As long as her weapon stays where it's supposed to be, I have no issue with it at all.

The gun owner is unable to protect her weapon. She can't prevent its theft and misuse. Hence it needs to be secured by an authorized person, lacking that, the police.

 

[thatJeffguy]

What I don't think is a valid answer is refusing to treat someone who is legally carrying a fire arm until police arrive (essentially delaying care for several minutes if police aren't already on scene) or leaving the fire arm on scene unless the scene is the patient's house.

My main point is, essentially, some of the individuals here would let a law abiding citizen exercising their Constitutional right to bear arms lie on the ground and die while waiting for the LEO's to show up. I just don't see how that makes sense, really.

 

[daedalus]

And you would be sued and you would lose for neglecting a patient w/o valid cause. Your unjustified fear of firearms does not allow you to decide that a law abiding citizen will not get care. And what is even funnier now you have made it public that you would willingly neglect patients, I would not want to be you when you get sued.

Hah! this post has got to be the biggest piece of boloney I have ever read! Really??

If there is a man down on the ground, and I see a gun on his belt, or in a shoulder holster, I am not going near him until PD is on scene. This also happens to be company policy as well. Good luck suing me for following the standards of my profession (scene safety), dude. How do I know if the person with a gun has it legally or is a criminal???

 

[daedalus]

Most people with this objection have no objection to the presence of firearms, just unsecured firearms.

Quoted for truth. I think what's happening between everybody on this thread is a failure to communicate. I think there may be much more agreement when everybody is on the same page.

Double quoted for the truth. I have no problem with firearms. I have a problem with losing my life because a prospective patient has an unsecured firearm on his person, when I know nothing about him.

 

[medic417]

Hah! this post has got to be the biggest piece of boloney I have ever read! Really??

If there is a man down on the ground, and I see a gun on his belt, or in a shoulder holster, I am not going near him until PD is on scene. This also happens to be company policy as well. Good luck suing me for following the standards of my profession (scene safety), dude. How do I know if the person with a gun has it legally or is a criminal???

Well are you missing what the entire discussions have been about including your own? It is knowing that the person has a Concealed Carry Permit. Your own statement was basically you would not treat the person that was licensed to carry and was carrying. So again yes you would be sued and lose for neglecting the patient as described in this ridiculous discussion.

 

[daedalus]

So does that question come before or after my SAMPLE history?

"Sir, do you have a valid CCW license on your person for that firearm, and can I see it along with a government issued photo ID?"

 

[medichopeful]

So does that question come before or after my SAMPLE history?

"Sir, do you have a valid CCW license on your person for that firearm, and can I see it along with a government issued photo ID?"

"P" actually stands for "pistol," so it's built right into SAMPLE.

 

[ffemt8978]

"P" actually stands for "pistol," so it's built right into SAMPLE.

The new and improved version of SAMPLE?

S - Smoking
A - Amphetamines
M - Medications
P - Pistol
L - Liquor
E - Emesis

 

[JPINFV]

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

"I'm not saying you can't own a gun,
I'm not saying you can't carry a gun,
I'm just saying you can't carry a gun on my Ambulance."​

-Virgil Earp (Tombstone, 1993)... kinda... ^_^​

 

[medichopeful]

"i'm not saying you can't own a gun,
i'm not saying you can't carry a gun,
i'm just saying you can't carry a gun on my ambulance."​

-virgil earp (tombstone, 1993)... Kinda... ^_^​

Classic B)

 

[JPINFV]

"I'm not saying you can't own a gun,
I'm not saying you can't carry a gun,
I'm just saying you can't carry a gun on my Ambulance."​

-Virgil Earp (Tombstone, 1993)... kinda... ^_^​

I'm your huckleberry.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

I'm your huckleberry.

^^ FFEMT's back, I think... ^^

"From now on I see [a thread about guns], I kill the man [posting it]. So run you cur. And tell the other curs the law is coming. You tell 'em I'm coming! And Hell's coming with me you hear! Hell's coming with me!"

Too Much? How about...

"Why [JPINFV], you look like somebody just walked over your grave."

Or, maybe...

Go ahead, skin it! Skin that smokewagon and see what happens... I'm gettin' tired of all your gas, now jerk that pistol and go to work! I said throw down, [NJN]!

WOW... Seriously what is with all the guns and violence in this post...
​

 

[ffemt8978]

Let's try to keep this on topic.

 

[rescue99]

Let's try to keep this on topic.

Awww Geeee.....But it was entertaining. ^_^

 

[thatJeffguy]

Well are you missing what the entire discussions have been about including your own? It is knowing that the person has a Concealed Carry Permit. Your own statement was basically you would not treat the person that was licensed to carry and was carrying. So again yes you would be sued and lose for neglecting the patient as described in this ridiculous discussion.

^^
What he said..


Also, openly carrying a firearm is legal in a number of states, such as PA and AZ. I open carry when the weather dictates and if I was refused treatment for that, I'd be quite upset.