Concealed Carry

[medic417]

LOL I remember why I quit coming here. To many people that know nothing about a subject trying to tell people what and how to do things.

 

[FF-EMT Diver]

You wonder why I called you a bully and yet you come back on here spouting "intellectual capacity of a mentally handicapped gorilla"......And that's not childish bully??

I enjoy a good debate as well but I refuse to mindlessly argue and name call because someone has a different point of view than myself....

I dont know why you haven't gotten answers to all your multitude of questions as I do not remeber them, but I could make a quess and that would be if those posts were as obnoxiuos as your last few have been I can totally understand why you were ignored.

You're very welcome for the response back and I dont consider myself "telling you straight" I'm just simply saying at times we'd be better agreeing to disagree rather than posting our feelings over and over, these types of threads wind up getting locked and other members never get a chance to voice their opinion which could raise other valid points and then you or I could comment on that.

 

[scottyb]

I think this is an interesting debate. A lot of strong emotional opinions about a very controversial topic. I, for one, have a very strong opinion of the second amendment and do not fear or questions someone's ability to exercise it.

That said, I understand that many people feel uncomfortable around firearms. Mostly, not all the time, I feel this is caused by a lot of misinformation or a lack of exposure/experience with firearms. But, I respect that opinion and know that if you feel as strongly as I do, there is no budging you from your opinion.

I state my case in this manner: I tend to treat guns with the respect deserved. I would not refuse to treat someone with a pocket knife based completely on the possession, neither will I a gun. Mental status plays a big role. I heve felt more uncomfortable in a room with a AMS patient armed with a broom then I did on the one case I had with a firearm being present.

Granted that was a hunting accident where the patient fell from his tree stand. But I moved the gun to the side after clearing it. I held the ammo in my pocket. I did not give it much thought after that. I just made sure the LEO that was first on scene knew where it was. I did not feel threatened at anytime, as I will not place myself in that situation.

I also would not have forced a member of my crew to treat in the face of their lack of comfort. In the end it falls on your own personal feeling about the situation. I do not feel that a blanket answer can cover this. "The scene is safe", in my mind has always been a subjective thing based on ones opinion of the scene.

I understand that my example was a hunting incident, involving a shotgun and not a concealed handgun. I can honestly say I do not know exactly how I would act in this situation. Thinking about brings up too many variables that would change my answer. I look forward to further opinions and justifications on this topic as I would like to see what others think.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

I say again... you show up on scene and there is a gun... you do not know if it is legal... if there is a proper permit... who is in possession... why the gun is present... what role the weapon played in the situation you are there to deal with... etc...

Until proven otherwise, I am going to keep myself safe and assume that the gun is there because the person holding it just gunned down 7 co-workers, is holding 2 teenage girls in his basement, and plans to shoot me, rape my partner, inject every narc found in the back of the ambulance, and take my rig for a joy ride through 5 states while wearing my head as a hat.

I know... EXTREME MUCH? But the point is that it is not my job to verify that the gun is licensed... that there is a proper CWP... that the holder of the gun is also named on the permit (ID check time?)... that despite legally carrying the gun, the holder isn't gonna snap (or has snapped) due to a verity of issues raging from depression to a diabetic issue to other previously unknown mental issues, and will turn the gun on me... that if the patient is unconscious the gun will not fall into the wrong hands or is in the wrong hands... etc...

My job, first and foremost, is to ensure my safety, the safety of my partner, the safety of other responders, the safety bystanders, and ONLY THEN the care of that patient. I do not care if we are talking about a person carrying a handgun, a pocket knife, a machette, an assault rifle, a baseball bat, a hockey stick, or a cup of chlorine... if I feel that there is a person with an item on scene that may present a danger to myself, I only have one responsibility... to ensure that I remain safe. And I AM NOT gonna take the time to ensure that someone carrying a gun is doing so legally... I feel safe... you get treated... in that order... and a gun in the back of an ambulance?

And it would be far more useful if those people that were replying to this thread (pro or against guns) actually had experience in the field and could express their personal opinions respectfully, realizing that no matter how much you scream or act like an azz (if it is acting), opinions will not change when it comes to personal safety. And even if it is your right to carry, it is a hospital's / school's / ambulance service's / etc. right to say NO GUNS ALLOWED!

 

[FF-EMT Diver]

I say again... you show up on scene and there is a gun... you do not know if it is legal... if there is a proper permit... who is in possession... why the gun is present... what role the weapon played in the situation you are there to deal with... etc...

Until proven otherwise, I am going to keep myself safe and assume that the gun is there because the person holding it just gunned down 7 co-workers, is holding 2 teenage girls in his basement, and plans to shoot me, rape my partner, inject every narc found in the back of the ambulance, and take my rig for a joy ride through 5 states while wearing my head as a hat.

I know... EXTREME MUCH? But the point is that it is not my job to verify that the gun is licensed... that there is a proper CWP... that the holder of the gun is also named on the permit (ID check time?)... that despite legally carrying the gun, the holder isn't gonna snap (or has snapped) due to a verity of issues raging from depression to a diabetic issue to other previously unknown mental issues, and will turn the gun on me... that if the patient is unconscious the gun will not fall into the wrong hands or is in the wrong hands... etc...

My job, first and foremost, is to ensure my safety, the safety of my partner, the safety of other responders, the safety bystanders, and ONLY THEN the care of that patient. I do not care if we are talking about a person carrying a handgun, a pocket knife, a machette, an assault rifle, a baseball bat, a hockey stick, or a cup of chlorine... if I feel that there is a person with an item on scene that may present a danger to myself, I only have one responsibility... to ensure that I remain safe. And I AM NOT gonna take the time to ensure that someone carrying a gun is doing so legally... I feel safe... you get treated... in that order... and a gun in the back of an ambulance?

And it would be far more useful if those people that were replying to this thread (pro or against guns) actually had experience in the field and could express their personal opinions respectfully, realizing that no matter how much you scream or act like an azz (if it is acting), opinions will not change when it comes to personal safety. And even if it is your right to carry, it is a hospital's / school's / ambulance service's / etc. right to say NO GUNS ALLOWED!

Well said mountian and I also had this thought for those of you that would refuse, it is illegal in most states to carry onto Govt property and in saying that the back of the truck is Govt property ( those that aren't private or Hosp based).

 

[scottyb]

Well said mountian and I also had this thought for those of you that would refuse, it is illegal in most states to carry onto Govt property and in saying that the back of the truck is Govt property ( those that aren't private or Hosp based).

During my research I have not found many states that make that blanket statement in their statutes. True, many allow localities to make local laws and enforce them. Also, property is not a term I have seen, more usage of bldgs/courthouse/police station, etc. I have never seen a state statute that list ambulances a gov't property that is off limits, and most are very specific. I will continue to look though. My main source is handgunlaw.us, it is a compilation and requires double checking. Federal property/military bases are the only ones I have seen specifically listed, but it has been a long time since I have done extensive research on laws. It is hard to make general statements about gun laws throughout the country. They vary greatly.

 

[scottyb]

Hospitals do come up in some states as being off limits as well as correctional facilities. I forgot to add that.

 

[BLSBoy]

We wonder why we loose respected and well educated members of this forum.

 

[wolfwyndd]

[snippage for brevity]
I can't believe what a bunch of pansies exist in the EMS field. We'll handle AIDS infested blood, but an inanimate object chills us to our bones. I see no need for LEO presence simply because the guy is exercising a right.

You also have the right to remain silent. It's a shame so many people in this country don't exercise that right.

Look. You asked what we would do in a certain situation. I told you what I would do, and those of MY squad would do. If I'd have known you were trolling for an argument, I wouldn't have responded. Our chief is an LEO part time so I'm pretty sure he has a good idea how to handle a firearm. Most of our squad members are avid hunters and several carry CCW permits. Just because we won't let a patient carry a firearm in our rig doesn't make us pansies. You have every constitutional right to carry your firearm. The STATE has every right to tell you WHERE you can, and can't carry it. Our squadhouse and ambulance are OUR property and WE have the right to say what does, and doesn't happen on our property. Feel free to file a lawsuit against us saying we infringed upon your right to carry your weapon. Until such time as a judge rules in your favor, take your CCW permit AND your weapon and get off our property.

 

[thatJeffguy]

You also have the right to remain silent. It's a shame so many people in this country don't exercise that right.

Look. You asked what we would do in a certain situation. I told you what I would do, and those of MY squad would do. If I'd have known you were trolling for an argument, I wouldn't have responded. Our chief is an LEO part time so I'm pretty sure he has a good idea how to handle a firearm. Most of our squad members are avid hunters and several carry CCW permits. Just because we won't let a patient carry a firearm in our rig doesn't make us pansies. You have every constitutional right to carry your firearm. The STATE has every right to tell you WHERE you can, and can't carry it. Our squadhouse and ambulance are OUR property and WE have the right to say what does, and doesn't happen on our property. Feel free to file a lawsuit against us saying we infringed upon your right to carry your weapon. Until such time as a judge rules in your favor, take your CCW permit AND your weapon and get off our property.

That's completely fine and I agree with what you're saying. I've got no issue with people making their own decisions. I do, however, have an issue with a deadly weapon "registered" to my name being given to some hospital security guard for 'safe keeping', with no system of receipt or whatever.

 

[Achromatic]

I can't believe what a bunch of pansies exist in the EMS field. We'll handle AIDS infested blood, but an inanimate object chills us to our bones.

That's a fairly ridiculous comparison. I don't know about you, but I don't bathe my unprotected hands in AIDS-infected blood, and I don't know anyone who does.

Perhaps with the appropriate BODY SUBSTANCE ISOLATION techniques in place, we MINIMIZE THE RISK to ourselves from such AIDS-infected blood.

I haven't seen anyone on this thread claim that "no way, not ever, I will never go on a scene where there is a gun present". However, I have seen many people say that they will require "appropriate isolation" techniques to "minimize the risk" - sound familiar?

The AIDS analogy is so far off base it's not funny.

 

[silver]

ok AIDS infested blood seriously? Blood cannot be infested with a syndrome.

When you step into government and private property you basically waive those rights, at any point you can be asked to leave...Besides, just because it's a right does not mean it is the correct thing to do in every situation.

When I am putting myself in a vulnerable position, I don't want to be near something so deadly unless it is correctly controlled, (and really a spoon isn't very deadly).

 

[daedalus]

Yes, if a patient has an unsecured gun on them because they have a CCW, they have lost the right to emergency medical care from myself. While we live in a nation that supports the rights to ownership of weapons, we also live in a nation of consequences to actions.

I will not approach a patient who has a gun unless they are PD, or PD has secured the scene.

 

[medic417]

Yes, if a patient has an unsecured gun on them because they have a CCW, they have lost the right to emergency medical care from myself. While we live in a nation that supports the rights to ownership of weapons, we also live in a nation of consequences to actions.

I will not approach a patient who has a gun unless they are PD, or PD has secured the scene.

And you would be sued and you would lose for neglecting a patient w/o valid cause. Your unjustified fear of firearms does not allow you to decide that a law abiding citizen will not get care. And what is even funnier now you have made it public that you would willingly neglect patients, I would not want to be you when you get sued.

 

[JPINFV]

Yes, if a patient has an unsecured gun on them because they have a CCW, they have lost the right to emergency medical care from myself. While we live in a nation that supports the rights to ownership of weapons, we also live in a nation of consequences to actions.

Err, what? Someone gives up care as a consequence of exercising their rights? What's next, people involved in protests don't deserve care because their exercising their right to free speech and the provider doesn't agree with the point being made?

 

[John E]

Contrary...

to what some people have argued, I have no fear whatsoever of inanimate objects, it's the :censored::censored::censored::censored:ing idiots carrying the inanimate objects that concern me. Including those who think that military service entitles them to do whatever they want wherever they want with weapons.

 

[Achromatic]

Err, what? Someone gives up care as a consequence of exercising their rights? What's next, people involved in protests don't deserve care because their exercising their right to free speech and the provider doesn't agree with the point being made?

First a disclaimer: I absolutely disagree with this, but witness pharmacists and physicians who refuse to give / fill scripts for birth control, "Plan B", RU 486, etc... based on beliefs.

 

[JPINFV]

Achromatic, an unplanned pregnancy is not an emergency. I'd expect any physician involved with emergency care (surgeon, emergency physician, etc) who refuses care to a patient having an emergency condition (including refusing to assess to rule out emergency care) based on personal belief to be held accountable in the court of public opinion, court of professional ethics, and the court of law. There are reasonable steps that can be taken to secure a weapon of someone who is legally carrying a fire arm.

 

[Achromatic]

There are reasonable steps that can be taken to secure a weapon of someone who is legally carrying a fire arm.

Absolutely there are. Previously you called out daedalus for his refusal to treat a PT with an unsecured firearm. I think that's the crux. Most people with this objection have no objection to the presence of firearms, just unsecured firearms.

That unfortunately leads to comments about "pansies" who "better hope they never have a scene in a gun shop or they'll be there for a month securing the scene"... (I'd love to see the gun shop that keeps its weapons and ammo unsecured, so I could point the Dept of Licensing at them to lose their registration...)

 

[medichopeful]

Most people with this objection have no objection to the presence of firearms, just unsecured firearms.

Quoted for truth. I think what's happening between everybody on this thread is a failure to communicate. I think there may be much more agreement when everybody is on the same page.