Concealed Carry

[medichopeful]

Looks like all of us 17+yo men are members of the militia. I'd say that's almost a REQUIREMENT to carry a sidearm!

You can't be serious.

 

[JPINFV]

You can't be serious.

What? Don't believe in conceal carry by law abiding citizens?

 

[medichopeful]

What? Don't believe in conceal carry by law abiding citizens?

Where did I say that? I'm curious.

I was more referring to thatJeffguy's entire attitude. I'm fine with people carrying concealed weapons, until it affects me.

 

[scottyb]

I'm fine with people carrying concealed weapons, until it affects me.

You are assuming it will effect in a negative way, I presume.

There are probably hundreds of examples of a concealed fire arm being used in self defense or defense of other innocent people every month in this country. You never hear about them because they are considered news worthy. The news would rather kiss Obama's butt or kick it. I know there are at least 7 or 8, they are listed every month in my American Rifleman magazine.

 

[medichopeful]

You are assuming it will effect in a negative way, I presume.

There are probably hundreds of examples of a concealed fire arm being used in self defense or defense of other innocent people every month in this country. You never hear about them because they are considered news worthy. The news would rather kiss Obama's butt or kick it. I know there are at least 7 or 8, they are listed every month in my American Rifleman magazine.

For the sake of this argument, I am.

I am not arguing against CCW under normal circumstances. I know that they have, at times, been used for good. I never said they weren't.

But what people are failing to realize is the fact that just because you have a CCW permit does NOT mean that you are automatically one of the "good guys." Yes, the majority of the people carrying a weapon are probably good people with no ill intentions. But think about this: it only takes one who is different to cause some serious problems. And unfortunately, when EMS responds, they have no way of knowing the true intentions of the patient.

So am I against CCW? No. Will I treat someone differently if I know they're carrying a weapon? Yes, but only to an extent. If I do not feel safe entering a scene or treating a patient when a gun is present, they will probably have to wait. But once I make contact after the weapon is secured, they will get the same treatment as everybody else. It's going to be up to me and my partner about whether we want to enter the scene. It's not going to be a one-size fits all situation. But if there is a gun on scene, that has a very high likelihood of making my approach different, if not stopping it at all.

 

[thatJeffguy]

But what people are failing to realize is the fact that just because you have a CCW permit does NOT mean that you are automatically one of the "good guys." Yes, the majority of the people carrying a weapon are probably good people with no ill intentions. But think about this: it only takes one who is different to cause some serious problems. And unfortunately, when EMS responds, they have no way of knowing the true intentions of the patient.

Of course, using that logic, they could stab a pencil into your eye. Sometimes you've got to strap on the cajones and realize that life, despite Nanny Government's best steps, isn't a big cuddly warm play room with a "RESET" button and infinite lives. Sometimes you've got to actually take educated risks. Of the gun owners in America, I'd say about three percent of them actually use those firearms to commit crimes. Seems pretty statistically safe to me. Obviously, if they were flying "gang colors" and had baggies of crack dribbling out of their pockets, that'd be another factor to use in the assessment.

So am I against CCW? No. Will I treat someone differently if I know they're carrying a weapon? Yes, but only to an extent. If I do not feel safe entering a scene or treating a patient when a gun is present, they will probably have to wait. But once I make contact after the weapon is secured, they will get the same treatment as everybody else. It's going to be up to me and my partner about whether we want to enter the scene. It's not going to be a one-size fits all situation. But if there is a gun on scene, that has a very high likelihood of making my approach different, if not stopping it at all.

Let's do a specific situation, then;

It's Sunday morning, 0930, you get a call to a local church for a "fall from unknown height". You arrive and find an elderly gentleman sitting up, compound tib/fib, but alert/oriented. When you approach, you notice on his side is a pistol, in a holster.

Your response?

 

[thatJeffguy]

Where did I say that? I'm curious.

Are you afflicted with a syndrome that prevents you from actually answering direct questions?

I was more referring to thatJeffguy's entire attitude. I'm fine with people carrying concealed weapons, until it affects me.

I wish that cowards could all wear little pink hats so I'd know, if I saw them being mugged, that they'd prefer for my firearm to not "affect" them and I can let their molestation continue.

 

[daedalus]

Like Medichopeful said, I also have no problem with private ownership of weapons, and even CCW or open carry if it is legal in the respective area. However, any time I am working in the field, a gun is a dangerous piece of equipment that can be used to kill, and since I do not know the person I am called to treat, I must assume they are not supposed to have the weapon (this is a far safer wager than to assume all people with guns I encounter in the field are licensed to have them and are good guys, would you not agree?) .

Is is forgotten that convicted felons are not allowed to get a CCW license, and that many will carry anyways? Also, is it possible that somebody with a CCW license will not have the best of intentions? Does the legal right to possess a concealed gun automatically also make what every the carrier does with the weapon legal? No. The carrier can still do illegal things (shoot me or my partner) even though he has a permit. Does a permit automatically mean that the carrier is someone I would trust to carry a gun while I work on him or his family? What happens if the patient has the concealed weapon and has a permit to have it, yet is have a hypoglycemic episode or acute psychosis?

So in the end, it does not matter to me as a prehospital provider is a patient with a gun has a license or not. It does not matter if they are a good guy or a felon. The only things that matter are 1. I do not know them, and, 2. They have a gun. There was an instance at my company where a provider was held at gunpoint by a patient's brother with a legally obtained and owned firearm. The fact that the gunmen obtained the gun legally does not make it any less dangerous, and obviously did not make the man using it any less dangerous. I hope this illustrates my point.

It is just a safer bet to assume I will get hurt, than to go in with blind trust that the patient has the gun because they are lawfully exercising their right to carry it, their mentation is stable, they have good intentions, etc.

Be aware that I support the private ownership of guns fully and will defend the constitutional right to own weapons for future generations should it ever be threatened. I also want to go home safely each night.

 

[daedalus]

It's Sunday morning, 0930, you get a call to a local church for a "fall from unknown height". You arrive and find an elderly gentleman sitting up, compound tib/fib, but alert/oriented. When you approach, you notice on his side is a pistol, in a holster.

Your response?

A local church? The fact that someone is a church goer does not score them "good guy points" with me. I treat a sunday school teacher and a homeless person with the same amount respect and non-prejudgment. As such, I will assume that they could use the firearm to hurt myself or my partner should they get angry with my care. I will ask this patient to have someone take the firearm and place it away from the scene, and until that happens I will not approach and treat.

There have been very violent church goers who commit horrible atrocities (such as the recent shooting spree in a church in the midwest where the gunmen was a long time member of the congregation). This is not at all to say church goers are bad people, but it is to say that bad people can be church goers (or a member of about any other group imaginable).

Like I have said, I will always wager that I will be hurt, over blind faith that a stranger is a good person with a valid reason to carry a gun.

 

[JPINFV]

Like Medichopeful said, I also have no problem with private ownership of automobiles, and even if driving is legal in the respective area. However, any time I am working in the field, an automobile is a dangerous piece of equipment that can be used to kill, and since I do not know the person I am called to treat, I must assume they are not supposed to have the automobile (this is a far safer wager than to assume all people with automobiles I encounter in the field are licensed to have them and are good guys, would you not agree?) .

Is is forgotten that people with suspended licenses are not allowed to get a drivers license, and that many will still drive anyways? Also, is it possible that somebody with a drivers license will not have the best of intentions? Does the legal right to possess an automobile also make what every the carrier does with the automobile legal? No. The carrier can still do illegal things (run over me or my partner) even though he has a permit. Does a permit automatically mean that the driver is someone I would trust to drive an automobile while I work on him or his family? What happens if the patient driving and has a permit to drive, yet is have a hypoglycemic episode or acute psychosis?

Do you refuse to approach any automobile until the police secure the automobile? I hate to imagine that if I'm cleaning my parent's guns out in the garage at my parents house (and, to be honest, it's been years since they've been used and cleaned/oiled, so they really do need to be cleaned) and something happens that a responding crew is going to freak out because there's a shotgun or rifle with a cleaning rod in it in the garage. What's next? Calling police because there's an unsecured knife in the kitchen?

 

[thatJeffguy]

Do you refuse to approach any automobile until the police secure the automobile? I hate to imagine that if I'm cleaning my parent's guns out in the garage at my parents house (and, to be honest, it's been years since they've been used and cleaned/oiled, so they really do need to be cleaned) and something happens that a responding crew is going to freak out because there's a shotgun or rifle with a cleaning rod in it in the garage. What's next? Calling police because there's an unsecured knife in the kitchen?

Silly willy! Cars and guns are both inanimate objects, but guns are inherently evil! Duh!

;-)

 

[thatJeffguy]

Do people realize how stupid it sounds to say, essentially

"I have no problem with private ownership of weapons, or CCW. But, if you do CCW, I'm going to let your *** bleed to death."


That sounds like "a problem", to me.

 

[Akulahawk]

Well come on JPINFV, it's not as if the Federal Code specifically mentions what the "militia" is!

Title 10 Subtitle A PART I Chapter 13 § 311. Militia: composition and classes

(a) The militia of the United States consists of all able-bodied males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or who have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of the United States and of female citizens of the United States who are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are—
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the National Guard and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the members of the militia who are not members of the National Guard or the Naval Militia.


Er.... wait, I guess it does.

Looks like all of us 17+yo men are members of the militia. I'd say that's almost a REQUIREMENT to carry a sidearm!

And that above was probably written in the early 1900's... which is the "militia" referred to in the 2nd Amendment some 100+ years prior.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the second amendment predates by a large margin that part of USC.

Yep.

Oh, if you read the Heller decision, there's actually a pretty good explanation of the history of the 2nd, how it was constructed, and what each part of it means. And for the lawyers out there, also in Heller, it should be noted that the "rational basis" level of scrutiny is off the table. Intermediate or strict scrutiny will be what's applied... but that hasn't yet been established. That's coming, but will take many cases and years to fully define.

 

[daedalus]

Do you refuse to approach any automobile until the police secure the automobile? I hate to imagine that if I'm cleaning my parent's guns out in the garage at my parents house (and, to be honest, it's been years since they've been used and cleaned/oiled, so they really do need to be cleaned) and something happens that a responding crew is going to freak out because there's a shotgun or rifle with a cleaning rod in it in the garage. What's next? Calling police because there's an unsecured knife in the kitchen?

I typed up a long winded response comparing why a gun and a kitchen knife are made, owned, and what their purposes where, but I then realized that arguing nitty gritty details is silly. I will not treat a non LEO who has a gun. Period. Replacing words in my post to change its meaning or comparing guns to kitchen utensils will not change my approach. I am happy to have the backing of others in my system, and JP and Jeffguy, if you are willing to do things differently than al the power to you.

 

[JPINFV]

Nitty gritty details like cars, knives and guns are both tools that can be dangerous, very dangerous, in the wrong hands?

Non-LEO? What if it's a security guard that is legally carrying? Armored transport doesn't get any love if there's any emergency medical problems? What about plain closed LEOs?

 

[Akulahawk]

... if you have a gun on your person and your are not an LEO, I will not treat you until the gun is secure. What do I mean by secure? In a lock box in your car/home or with the police department. And like I said before, since it is my company policy not to enter a scene with loose firearms, I will get the backing of my management and medical director.

Yah. Cops are infallible. A couple of them out here got themselves arrested for brandishing... think about that. Another one even is up on murder charges.

Yes, Detroit is a great city and generally is a decent place to work. Poverty and blight is a bigger risk for EMS workers than violence. Falling through a porch is a part of EMS field training...lol ^_^

Ecorse is a neighboring suburb of Detroit. NO..you don't have a right to arm yourself...we get enough criminals slingin guns around here as it is. Don't need some urban cowboy shootin his foot off becasue he's half as skilled as the thugs are and half as street smart. At least the thugs usually only kill each other.

Read the Heller decision. Most states have 2A analogues in their constitutions. Most citizens DO have the right to arm themselves. Michigan is a "Shall Issue" state. If the applicant meets the criteria... the applicant shall be issued a CCW license.

I fail to recall where the right to smoke is located in the constitution or any of it's amendments. You have a company policy and unfortunately you would probably win if brought to court in most states because we are content with losing our rights to make people feel "secure". I can see that there are more people here that have drank the "guns are bad and dangerous" punch and a dying concealed carry permit holder does not deserve a chance to live until they have their gun taken away. Unless they are a LEO, cause then they are infallible.

That pretty much sums up the problem. LEO OK, you get care now. Not LEO, you get to wait for care. I can see that becoming a legal problem down the road... think discrimination... especially after 2A incorporation.

 

[thatJeffguy]

Nitty gritty details like cars, knives and guns are both tools that can be dangerous, very dangerous, in the wrong hands?

Non-LEO? What if it's a security guard that is legally carrying? Armored transport doesn't get any love if there's any emergency medical problems? What about plain closed LEOs?

I think he means to say that the armed peasantry can't be trusted, and thus may "eat cake".

 

[medichopeful]

Do people realize how stupid it sounds to say, essentially

"I have no problem with private ownership of weapons, or CCW. But, if you do CCW, I'm going to let your *** bleed to death."


That sounds like "a problem", to me.

Here's an idea. How about you actually START your EMT class, learn what it means to be a medical provider, learn what it means to keep yourself safe, and THAN come back into this conversation. Until then, there is really no point in getting yourself involved.

You come onto this website, which is clearly about the field of pre-hospital medicine, and you tell everybody that they are idiots and wusses. Well, I have some news for you. Although you do have the right to free speech, you may want to seriously watch your mouth.

As far as answering your questions, I don't really see the point to be honest. All you are going to do is ignore them and be extremely immature in your responses. Go back and look at some of your previous posts. What good does name calling do?

So seriously consider your attitude, and get it through your mind that EMS is a bit different from the military and law enforcement. Because as of now, from everything I've seen, and I'm sure others would agree with me, you should not be in this field at all. All you care about is carrying a gun. You do NOT care about anything else, such as patient care or the safety and management of a scene.

 

[BLSBoy]

So seriously consider your attitude, and get it through your mind that EMS is a bit different from the military and law enforcement. Because as of now, from everything I've seen, and I'm sure others would agree with me, you should not be in this field at all. All you care about is carrying a gun. You do NOT care about anything else, such as patient care or the safety and management of a scene.

Well said.

 

[medichopeful]

Well said.

Thank you.