Concealed Carry

[Summit]

I hope none of the hoplophobes here ever get called to a gun store for treatment. The LEO's would have to build a new building to "secure" all the deadly murder-sticks lying around

ahhahahhahahahahahhaha

 

[medichopeful]

I take issue with this statement.
Any object can be a weapon. Period. A spoon can be a weapon. A fork can kill someone. A baseball bat is damn good at killing people. Narcotics, too, can kill someone. Personally, I don't give a damn if my patient brings a spoon on my squad. And narcotics? Usually, they're already there.

Yes, all those things can be used to kill someone. But in all seriousness, which one is more dangerous, a gun or a spoon?

 

[JPINFV]

The gun. Afterall, there is no spoon.

 

[spinnakr]

Yes, all those things can be used to kill someone. But in all seriousness, which one is more dangerous, a gun or a spoon?

I would make the argument that both the gun and the spoon are in and of themselves harmless; it is the person wielding the implement that is potentially dangerous. If Jason Bourne were coming towards me (peacefully) with a spoon, I would probably be far more wary than if a private citizen were coming towards me (peacefully) with a gun.

Furthermore, I think a baseball bat can be just as nasty as a gun, but we don't go around hollering about them, do we?

 

[mcdonl]

... In addition to point 2...
4. Be sure of your target and what's behind it (yes, you aren't shooting it, but what ever you're point it at is your 'target').

I left that out because in this instance, we were not talking about shooting and I didn't want to get mistaken for an NRA firearms instructor.

I have though a) taught many children/adults safe firearms handling in 1 hour and b) seen health care professionals learn skills far more dangerous, with far greater chance of causing harm in 1 hour as well.

Life is dangerous, EMS is extremely dangerous. I live in a very rural area where a) firearms are common and b) LEO's are few and far between. I am sure there are people in urban areas who need to deal with things I have never seen before.

 

[medichopeful]

Furthermore, I think a baseball bat can be just as nasty as a gun, but we don't go around hollering about them, do we?

No, but how many providers allow them into their ambulances or allow a patient to have one in their possession during treatment?

 

[Achromatic]

In my state, it is perfectly legal to carry a concealed weapon with a permint, but it is NOT legal or ethical to deny EMS to a patient. I would think that you, your company and your municipailty would have your butt's sued if you denied care because a person was legally carrying a weapon.

Am I wrong?

Yes you are. You know, in class, "BSI. Scene safe." is a mantra that gets mindlessly droned before your every practical and eval and without thinking of it.

You are told that, in priority order, YOUR safety, your partner's safety, other's safety, the patient's safety, is your concern.

If you do not believe that you as an EMS provider are safe in a given situation whatever that situation may be, you are not going to be legally liable for the results of that.

HOWEVER, you are at the very least obliged to do what you can to make the scene safe - be that 'retreat and call LE', 'request more people', whatever, and, ONCE THE SCENE IS SAFE, then render the appropriate aid.

You may well, and in my opinion, should be able to defend your decisions, whatever they may be (and this goes for everything you do in EMS), that has a material effect upon a person. "The scene was not safe because I spotted a gun on a person with AMS", fine... "The scene was not safe because the man was wearing a pink t-shirt, and a man with a pink t-shirt once attacked me", not so fine.

If you want to talk about using the constitution and the right to bear arms (as you imply in your 'legally carrying' argument), then someone could point to the same constitutional document that says very little about the right to pre-hospital emergent care.

Disclaimer: I have pointedly, though perhaps not successfully, attempted to neutralize my own opinion on the subject in this post, and instead tried to address the claim that it would be "illegal" not to treat a person who is legally carrying a weapon.

 

[mcdonl]

If you do not believe that you as an EMS provider are safe in a given situation whatever that situation may be, you are not going to be legally liable for the results of that.

I stand (Or sit as it were...) corrected. I didnt realize it was subjective. It makes sense though.

HOWEVER, you are at the very least obliged to do what you can to make the scene safe - be that 'retreat and call LE', 'request more people', whatever, and, ONCE THE SCENE IS SAFE, then render the appropriate aid.

Do you agree that if I am comfortable with the patient's mental state, and I am comfortable with them carrying a gun that I can proceed to provide aid as needed? I am beginning to understand that it is very gray and personal comfort has a lot to do with it.

"The scene was not safe because I spotted a gun on a person with AMS", fine...

Agreed. A gun on a person with AMS is a very good reason to call for LEO or other assistance. No argument there.

"If you want to talk about using the constitution and the right to bear arms

As Bartleby the scribner said... "I prefer not"

 

[Achromatic]

Do you agree that if I am comfortable with the patient's mental state, and I am comfortable with them carrying a gun that I can proceed to provide aid as needed? I am beginning to understand that it is very gray and personal comfort has a lot to do with it.

Absolutely - though I would also recommend you make your partner aware of the same, so they can make the decision for themselves - though it can be difficult, I think most of us in the same boat would generally like to trust our partner, but be able to make some decisions for ourselves.

But yes, if you believe that you are comfortable with the scene and the situation, and that it is safe to you, to your partner, to others and to the patient, then go ahead and render aid.

One last note may be the 'others' side of thing. Say it's a trauma, as a result of whatever, domestic violence, mugging, familial dispute. Say one of your onlookers is the perpetrator of this. Such a thing, in theory, if your PT notices this, could rapidly change the situation for the worse. I'm not saying "oh dear, anything could possibly go wrong", I'm saying whenever you make such decisions (and it goes beyond issues of CCW) you need to feel comfortable in yourself that you have made a thoughtful, rational and thorough assessment of scene safety. You don't have to factor in such edge cases as "there was an article on the news about some space debris coming through our atmosphere today, so we probably don't want to treat outside", but to use my example above, what's to say the patient didn't get into a fight with someone who attacked his sister/daughter? He's all fine, and being treated by you for lacerations, whatever... all is well. Then he notices in the onlookers said person...

Focus, examine possibilities, examine likelihoods, and then make the decision that feels right to you to cover all aspects of your patient care on scene.

 

[mcdonl]

Achromatic, agreed. In a situation where it is a trauma, as a result of a crime then LEO needs to be involved. There is a saying in the CCW world... every fight you find yourself in will be a gun fight if you CCW. So, despite the scene if there was a crime, and a CCW was present it needs to be secured.

 

[thatJeffguy]

No, but how many providers allow them into their ambulances or allow a patient to have one in their possession during treatment?

How many providers show up at a baseball game and refuse to treat until all the Louisville Sluggers are impounded by the police?

 

[thatJeffguy]

Achromatic, agreed. In a situation where it is a trauma, as a result of a crime then LEO needs to be involved. There is a saying in the CCW world... every fight you find yourself in will be a gun fight if you CCW. So, despite the scene if there was a crime, and a CCW was present it needs to be secured.

What more secure place for my sidearm than in a top quality holster on my right hip

 

[Summit]

 

[mcdonl]

Summitt. That is awesome.

Best post I have ever seen... :lol:

 

[mcdonl]

A different Perspective...

Not sure if this is the right thing to do, and if this post gets removed that is ok... but over at another site, a gun related site this same question was asked.. NOT BY ME and the answers/expectations of the gun carrying public was complety different. I thought it was worth pointing out.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=487843

 

[medichopeful]

But yes, if you believe that you are comfortable with the scene and the situation, and that it is safe to you, to your partner, to others and to the patient, then go ahead and render aid.

Like you say, it's a completely personal choice. However, please remember a few things (not picking on you, Achromatic. This is just a good jumping-off point):
1) The scene is NEVER truly safe
2) The scene can change very quickly
3) Just because it is safe at one point in the call does NOT mean it will be in the next
4) You should NEVER, EVER feel completely safe. The second you let your guard down, THAT is when something is going to happen
5) IF you feel something just isn't right, get PD there and leave if you think it's necessary. DON'T try to be a hero

Now, am I saying that you should treat every patient as a hardened criminal or someone who wants to kill you? Yes, but only to an extent. Don't outwardly treat them like that, but keep it in the back of your mind that you do NOT know this person, and you have no idea what his intentions may be.

Stay safe out there.

 

[medichopeful]

How many providers show up at a baseball game and refuse to treat until all the Louisville Sluggers are impounded by the police?

You're right. The scene is never going to be completely safe, and it would be foolish to think that you could make it that way.

But let me clarify: how may providers are going to treat someone holding a baseball bat or with a baseball bat within reach?

 

[medichopeful]

Summitt. That is awesome.

Best post I have ever seen... :lol:

Seconded. That's classic

 

[medichopeful]

Sorry for quadruple post

Ignore.

 

[mcgrubbs]

Cut the attitude. We're having a serious conversation here, which could literally be a matter of life and death. And yes, although it is technically an inanimate object, it's about one that could actually kill somebody.

You sound pretty hardened for just a Basic student.

I'm also a Basic student, I don't talk a tenth as much as you do on here.