Mufasa556
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FireFighter Arrested by CHP. Thoughts?
- Thread starter BobBarker
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DrParasite
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and here I was thinking I was the only one who hears Staties and thinks of The Departed....
Jim37F
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So...committing the dreadful crime of necro posting (at least resurrecting a zombified thread is seasonally appropriate
)
Anyways, discussion of this case came up in another forum I was browsing (Quora.com ) and I looked a little into it...most recent update I could find was nearly a year old and basically says the firefighter's lawsuit against CHP was at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals still
http://www.firelawblog.com/2017/12/25/california-police-fire-wars-case-before-9th-circuit/
Just wondering if anyone has heard any other updates since last Dec, or if this is still bouncing around the courts?
)Anyways, discussion of this case came up in another forum I was browsing (Quora.com ) and I looked a little into it...most recent update I could find was nearly a year old and basically says the firefighter's lawsuit against CHP was at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals still
http://www.firelawblog.com/2017/12/25/california-police-fire-wars-case-before-9th-circuit/
Just wondering if anyone has heard any other updates since last Dec, or if this is still bouncing around the courts?
DrParasite
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interesting thing about this case:
According to https://www.open-public-records.com/court/california-15420431.htm, their was a ruling to dismiss on June 28th.
The initial request to dismiss was denied, as per https://ceas.uc.edu/content/dam/aero/docs/fire/CHP.pdf
some other interesting reads, if you wanted to read the actual details of the compalint: https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20160218a18
The state seems to be appealing the courts decision to dismiss. Based on the video, and what the lawyers said, their was a settlement almost in place, and then the state appealed. the court told them to arbitrate, which is likely where it ended.
Personally, I think it should have gone to trial; there have been too many instances of cops arrest (where the arrests maaaay technically be legal), and not enough case law that says these arrests are inappropriate.
So the state isn't saying they weren't wrong, they are saying they can't be sued because, as the state, they are immune from lawsuits on the basis of they are the state of Ca. The courts disagreed, so they appealed to the Ca appeals court.
According to https://www.open-public-records.com/court/california-15420431.htm, their was a ruling to dismiss on June 28th.
The initial request to dismiss was denied, as per https://ceas.uc.edu/content/dam/aero/docs/fire/CHP.pdf
some other interesting reads, if you wanted to read the actual details of the compalint: https://www.leagle.com/decision/infdco20160218a18
The state seems to be appealing the courts decision to dismiss. Based on the video, and what the lawyers said, their was a settlement almost in place, and then the state appealed. the court told them to arbitrate, which is likely where it ended.
Personally, I think it should have gone to trial; there have been too many instances of cops arrest (where the arrests maaaay technically be legal), and not enough case law that says these arrests are inappropriate.
CCCSD
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Please cite the cases wherein Police make arrests not based on law. You are probably getting confused with cases being pled or dismissed due to the DA not filing.
We can’t just make up arrests. There ARE legal checks which must be obeyed and followed. What “case law...are inappropriate” are you referring to? Your blanket statement is rude and dishonors the thousands of Police Officers killed doing their job- you know, arresting bad people.
I’ll be sure to start watching the medics and EMTs more closely, as I’m going to report any deviation from protocols and company policy. Got to make sure nothing inappropriate happens...
We can’t just make up arrests. There ARE legal checks which must be obeyed and followed. What “case law...are inappropriate” are you referring to? Your blanket statement is rude and dishonors the thousands of Police Officers killed doing their job- you know, arresting bad people.
I’ll be sure to start watching the medics and EMTs more closely, as I’m going to report any deviation from protocols and company policy. Got to make sure nothing inappropriate happens...
DrParasite
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go back to page 1 of this thread... I posted several examples of officers arresting firefighters for failing to comply with the officers demands. Typically the law used is "failure to comply with the directions of a peace officer" or "interfering with an investigation" or some other generic law which says the officer's directions must be followed.
And before you get all defensive, you ABSOLUTELY CAN make up an arrest, or rather, a reason to arrest someone. Did you forget about the cop who arrested the nurse for failing to comply with his illegal demands? In case you have forgotten, that was caught on video
I'm not saying many of these charges don't get dismissed, and often the cops are disciplined for their actions (I mean, we can go back to the cop who choked a medic for failing to yield if you really wanted to), but to deny that is happens is, well, I don't know what to tell you.
You want a blanket statement, how about this: ANY TIME a member of law enforcement puts cuffs on another public safety employee for doing their job, causes a black eye for all involved. This is generally unwarranted, and more often than not, because the cop either felt disrespected or the other person failed to do what the cop told them to do. Before you said that never happens, feel free to review those two instances, as well as the resulting investigations, and the outcomes. I'm sure there are legitimate reasons for doing this, however, it's rarely a time sensitive issue that couldn't be handled back at the station or between white shirts over a cup of coffee the next day. And before you say it, if a serious crime is being committed by a public safety professional, I would support the cops doing what was needed to stop the crime and arrest the person, regardless of what they were doing. But that isn't the case in many of the aforementioned examples.
Cops should arrest bad people. most firefighter and EMS personnel aren't bad people, and shouldn't have to fear being arrested simply for doing their job. I never said that all cops were bad, or most cops were bad, or that most arrests were inappropriate. I made no blanket statement that was rude or dishonored thousands of police officers who were killed; however, those cops who arrest firefighters for doing this job are dishonoring everyone and creating a black eye for all involved.
And before you get all defensive, you ABSOLUTELY CAN make up an arrest, or rather, a reason to arrest someone. Did you forget about the cop who arrested the nurse for failing to comply with his illegal demands? In case you have forgotten, that was caught on video
I'm not saying many of these charges don't get dismissed, and often the cops are disciplined for their actions (I mean, we can go back to the cop who choked a medic for failing to yield if you really wanted to), but to deny that is happens is, well, I don't know what to tell you.
You want a blanket statement, how about this: ANY TIME a member of law enforcement puts cuffs on another public safety employee for doing their job, causes a black eye for all involved. This is generally unwarranted, and more often than not, because the cop either felt disrespected or the other person failed to do what the cop told them to do. Before you said that never happens, feel free to review those two instances, as well as the resulting investigations, and the outcomes. I'm sure there are legitimate reasons for doing this, however, it's rarely a time sensitive issue that couldn't be handled back at the station or between white shirts over a cup of coffee the next day. And before you say it, if a serious crime is being committed by a public safety professional, I would support the cops doing what was needed to stop the crime and arrest the person, regardless of what they were doing. But that isn't the case in many of the aforementioned examples.
Cops should arrest bad people. most firefighter and EMS personnel aren't bad people, and shouldn't have to fear being arrested simply for doing their job. I never said that all cops were bad, or most cops were bad, or that most arrests were inappropriate. I made no blanket statement that was rude or dishonored thousands of police officers who were killed; however, those cops who arrest firefighters for doing this job are dishonoring everyone and creating a black eye for all involved.
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DrParasite
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If the three judges had said to the plaintiff "mr plaintiff, you are correct; this law that you were arrested under is too vague to be applied properly, especially when this other law says it's a crime for anyone to interfere with you during your EMS duties." then when it happens again, the next time this happens (because we both know it's going to happen again), the attorney can say "in Gregoire vs State of California, the appeals court ruled that this is a bad law, and since the "justification for arrest" was as equally weak in this case, the charges should be immediately dismissed, and removed from my client's record." They can then use it in a civil suit to get compensatory damages against the department for their overreach of this law.
But I'm not an attorney (and to the best of my knowledge, neither are you), so someone who graduated law school can likely provide a more accurate description for how a judicial decision can be interpreted in the future and applied to other areas.
Summit
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"Can make up a reason arrest" is not the same as "May make up a reason to arrest."
The officers in the nurse case found that out when one was fired, the other stripped of all rank, and the nurse generously agreed to a mere 500K settlement... because officers MAY NOT do what they did to that nurse using the reasoning they did.
If you still cannot see the difference, try this on: An officer CAN shoot you for any reason, but he MAY NOT shoot you for any reason.
DrParasite
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I do know the difference.... but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened several times in recent past (again, see previous examples).
So when someone says
Well, that's not entirely true, as those officers did make up reasons to arrest a person (the "arrest" in question being defined as placing handcuffs, I'm sure there is a better legal definition that I don't care to discuss). The fact is that the arrests were inappropriate, and were done because the individual didn't do what the cop wanted, because they were doing their job.
I agree, that both the officers in question were disciplined, as their actions were inappropriate (and recorded on video for the public to see), but it didn't prevent the action from happening in the first place. How often has a similar event occurred when no discipline was done to the cop? The actions in question should have never happened, and, unfortunately, it's only a matter of time until it happens again.
And I can almost guarantee you if there was no video of the interaction, she would have been carted off to jail and the officers would face no discipline. Also, if a normal citizen made a false arrest/detainment, they would almost certainly be criminally charged for it. Lucky for this officer, he only lost his job.He should have been criminally charged with at least battery if not kidnapping.
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It isn't that arrests are made that aren't based on law, it's that an arrest may technically be legal but still inappropriate and unfair, and thus amounts to an abuse of power. We all know that if a cop wants to arrest you, he will find a reason, and the victim pays potentially huge consequences and often has little or no recourse. We've all seen it happen.
Well, anyone can shoot anyone for any reason. If you do, the only way you have any chance of getting out of it without going to jail is if you are a cop. Think about that. I'm not saying that to bash police, just to illustrate the incredible authority that they have to avoid consequences for actions that would put anyone else in prison for years. It's such a huge responsibility with such overwhelming ramifications that it only has to be abused occasionally for the net injustice to be massive.
The cops in the nurse case were punished, but not the same way a civilian would have been. Of course I'm not suggesting that cops should be charged with assault every time they put their hands on someone, but some more accountability for acting in ways that are clearly unfair and unnecessary would go a long way towards restoring the public trust.
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From another "world" that I am familiar with, right off the top of my head, about 10 years ago a man in San Diego was arrested and transported to the San Diego Police headquarters. What was this man's crime? He was openly carrying an unloaded handgun. At the time, this was a completely legal activity. The man was completely compliant, posed no obvious threat to anyone, and was clearly not brandishing. In short, he had not committed any crime. The Officers arrested him for "carrying a loaded firearm." This is in direct conflict with the fact that the handgun had no magazine inserted nor a bullet in the chamber. Once at headquarters, the officers held him there for approximately 2 hours while they tried to determine what they were going to book him for. They found nothing, returned him to where he had been initially arrested, handed him back his ammunition and pistol and let him go. They arrested him for a crime that didn't exist, and therefore they can't unarrest him. In effect, they kidnapped him.
What was the result? The City had to pay $35k and issue a finding of factual innocence in regard to the arrest. The guy's arrest record will always have that arrest on it... but at least it now has a "factually innocent" note along with it. From what I also recall, the Sgt. was demoted and other officers had notes placed in their files, and all SDPD officers had to go through training regarding this... all because the arrest was improper.
Bad arrests do happen. On the whole, the incidence of bad arrests is likely quite low. However, given the right circumstances (and sometimes video), these do make the news. Same with bad shoots...
Lastly: reminder to everyone to keep things civil.
akflightmedic
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Officer: Place your hands behind you back, stop struggling, stop resisting!
Me: What am I being arrested for?
Officer: I am arresting you for resisting arrest!
Me: But why the initial arrest??
Officer: (As I am slammed and cuffed), you are arrested for resisting arrest!
And the beat goes on....
Me: What am I being arrested for?
Officer: I am arresting you for resisting arrest!
Me: But why the initial arrest??
Officer: (As I am slammed and cuffed), you are arrested for resisting arrest!
And the beat goes on....
DrParasite
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That's not true at all. For example, check out this incident from North Carolina. However, I think the majority of people who criticize the cops for doing this would do the same thing in their position, or would end up dead at the hands of the victim. But I will also admit there have been several "bad shoots" that made the news, and sometimes those officers were criminally charged.
I think Remi said it better than I tried to. Just because something is technically legal doesn't make it appropriate.
Further, most of the time, when an inappropriate arrest is made, the most effective recourse is a very public lawsuit (all too often simply filing a complaint goes nowhere, and can put a target on your back for future retaliation), which all too often comes down to he said she said. Body cams and dash cams have lead to more transparency (as well as cleared more cops from wrongdoings than incriminated), but it's often an uphill battle for the victim to get this information.
HOWEVER, the vast majority of the cops are good, hard working people. They are simply doing their jobs to the best of the ability, and quite honestly, you couldn't pay me enough to be a cop in the current political environment they are forced to operate in. But the few bad apples who do abuse their power, who do put cuffs on people who refuse to follow their directions, who look for reasons to arrest someone just because, and when their is video evidence of their actions, they are often shown the door. And then their are good cops, who act appropriately, and defend themselves (appropriately), and they, too, are shown the door, because of political reasons, which is why I have 0 desire to go into law enforcement.
for the TL
R, most cops are good, but those who use their power inappropriately are bad, even if their actions are technically legal. There have been documented cases of such, especially when their actions are captured on video and/or a lawsuit is filed.
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Sure it’s true. NC has a fairly robust castle doctrine, so perhaps it’s a little less true here than elsewhere, but I assure you that if it comes down to your word vs a cops, you’ll lose every time.
And what about states that don’t have a castle law?
DrParasite
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Listen, I can't help it that many states aren't as progressive as NC... (ok stop laughing, event I can't say that with a straight face).... You can't make that as a blanket statement saying "the only way you can do it is if your a cop", because it does happen if the shooting is justified. But I will admit that there is a belief that cops commit a higher percentage of "justified shootings" than civilians, especially when their life is in danger. And I will also say that many shopkeepers have shot armed burgers and not been charged, because they were acting in self defense when their life was threatened.
And I will tell you, as a civilian, if you break into my house, and are approaching me with the intent to cause me or my family harm, I will put as many bullets into your body as I can until you are no longer a threat. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
and I agree with you, your word vs the cop, you will lose every time (as indicated by every speeding ticket I have gotten, there was no objective evidence, only the cops word that he did his job properly, actually saw the number, when it was my car, and since the judge knew him, and I was a random resident from another county, who is a judge going to believe?). Hence why I 100% support body cameras, they provide an objective and unbiased recollection of everything that occurred.
And I will tell you, as a civilian, if you break into my house, and are approaching me with the intent to cause me or my family harm, I will put as many bullets into your body as I can until you are no longer a threat. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.
and I agree with you, your word vs the cop, you will lose every time (as indicated by every speeding ticket I have gotten, there was no objective evidence, only the cops word that he did his job properly, actually saw the number, when it was my car, and since the judge knew him, and I was a random resident from another county, who is a judge going to believe?). Hence why I 100% support body cameras, they provide an objective and unbiased recollection of everything that occurred.
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So no law enforcement officer has ever detained someone inappropriately? Get a grip man, nobody is trying to dishonor cops here. The hyperbole that you come up with anytime law enforcement is remotely questioned is exactly why issues between the citizenry and law enforcement exist. Tone it down.
RocketMedic
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So here’s my take on the original issue: it is far easier to take off handcuffs than to knit a broken bone, rehab a fractured pelvis or explain why Dad isn’t coming home. That large, heavy fire engine is a blocking device keeping Joe Motorist from traumatic interaction with my body. That is its purpose in life. If Joe and Susie are inconvenienced by it, or even rear-end someone else because they’re dumb, that’s not my problem. The fire engine, tow trucks and blocking vehicles are there to shield me from Joe and Susie when they ignore all of the other warnings, and anyone who wants them moved before I deem it safe can either sod off or put me in cuffs in a safe spot (if they’re willing to pay for it). Mean and non-team working? I’m ok with that, far more ok than I am with losing someone to a preventable accident.
DrParasite
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For those of you who don't believe this actually happened, because it does seem pretty unreasonable that something like this would occur, I suggest you hear the "arrestee in question" explain exactly what happened: http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2599522/posts
And for he actual outcome, which was the result of a lawsuit: https://www.calgunsfoundation.org/s...ence-for-improper-unloaded-open-carry-arrest/
Like I said, not all cops are bad, and I don't even think these cops are bad guys (although they were ignorant of the law, and arrested an individual based on that ignorance); but just because a LEO puts cuffs on a person does not mean that the arrest is legal, or appropriate.
Interesting thing is why does it happen so often in CA? I worked in Indiana in EMS for 10 years, I never had a problem with PD getting upset with EMS/Fire closing lanes, they closed roads for us. Same here in Utah, and Nevada. Not sure about other parts of the country: but I hear about a lot of problems in CA with the PD getting upset about it.
Do the police just not work well with others there?
Do the police just not work well with others there?