FireFighter Arrested by CHP. Thoughts?

[BobBarker]

This story/incident is almost 3rys old, but after commenting on another thread, I was asked to create a new thread of this incident to see people's thoughts.
There was a car accident on the freeway and Chula Vista Fire Department and an ambulance responded. The Engineer parked the fire engine behind the ambulance, to protect the crew in the lane of traffic. A CHP officer asked him to move it and he refused to, citing his protocol to leave the engine there to protect the crew. Long story short, the officer arrested the firefighter and he was release 30 minutes late.

Story can be read here: http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...-chp-arrest-handcuff-2014mar25-htmlstory.html

Here's another site with a lot of specifics: http://www.leagle.com/decision/In FDCO 20160218A18/GREGOIRE v. CALIFORNIA HIGHWAY PATROL

What are your thoughts?

 

[DesertMedic66]

We have had multiple run ins with CHP out here while on traffic collisions on the freeways. Sadly it seems as if CHP's main priority is keeping lanes open despite crew safety.

 

[VentMonkey]

So to me it seems as though this simply became a richard measuring contest between two males Nothing more, nothing less. Hardly the same as someone insisting another human being needs care rendered, then being held back (aggressively, or not).

Every other fire engine was cancelled, and it sounds like your typical over inflated rescue response. The AMR crew parked in a better and most likely courteous position than this FF and his hero-complex-sounding having self. The cop asked him...repeatedly...to move. He was just milling around (like that never happens when a fire engine shows up to an over triaged call?), and claimed he was rendering aid by what? Holding a flashlight or some crap, gimme a break.

Both guys puffed their chests out at one another, and IMO in hindsight, both look silly, and have brought a bit of embarrassing publicity to their agencies. The FF got his feelings hurt, and it completely backfired on him when the cop called his bluff. The cop did warn the FF though, and no other providers gave him a hard time on scene of this call. LE does have ultimate control of a scene's safety, and even though we may not like it, can we cite the law, and their job in regards to the overall scene like we can the medical care, and aspects? Why can't we all just get the damn job done, and go home? Lol., geezuz.

The medical portion is our domain; the keeping us, and the other first responding agencies from being mooshed like pancakes is theirs. Now, if after complying with LE/ highway patrol, whomever, God forbid said FF, or paramedic was injured, or killed well now, that sounds like a justifiable lawsuit for them and/ or their families. But because you want to prove a point to "the boys back at the firehouse" and instead know nothing about California law, and end up briefly detained in handcuffs, in your bunker gear in the back of a patrol car then settle out of court, what point have you made?

 

[BobBarker]

So to me it seems as though this simply became a richard measuring contest between two males Nothing more, nothing less. Hardly the same as someone insisting another human being needs care rendered, then being held back (aggressively, or not).

Every other fire engine was cancelled, and it sounds like your typical over inflated rescue response. The AMR crew parked in a better and most likely courteous position than this FF and his hero-complex-sounding having self. The cop asked him...repeatedly...to move. He was just milling around (like that never happens when a fire engine shows up to an over triaged call?), and claimed he was rendering aid by what? Holding a flashlight or some crap, gimme a break.

Both guys puffed their chests out at one another, and IMO in hindsight, both look silly, and have brought a bit of embarrassing publicity to their agencies. The FF got his feelings hurt, and it completely backfired on him when the cop called his bluff. The cop did warn the FF though, and no other providers gave him a hard time on scene of this call. LE does have ultimate control of a scene's safety, and even though we may not like it, can we cite the law, and their job in regards to the overall scene like we can the medical care, and aspects? Why can't we all just get the damn job done, and go home? Lol., geezuz.

The medical portion is our domain; the keeping us, and the other first responding agencies from being mooshed like pancakes is theirs. Now, if after complying with LE/ highway patrol, whomever, God forbid said FF, or paramedic was injured, or killed well now, that sounds like a justifiable lawsuit for them and/ or their families. But because you want to prove a point to "the boys back at the firehouse" and instead know nothing about California law, and end up briefly detained in handcuffs, in your bunker gear in the back of a patrol car then settle out of court, what point have you made?

You might want to read the second link I put up there. The FF was actually holding C-Spine and actively caring for the patient per himself, his other firefighters and witnesses. The CHP officer also was reported to say that he "didn't care about the patients, and he wanted the engine moved".

 

[Jim37F]

We have had multiple run ins with CHP out here while on traffic collisions on the freeways. Sadly it seems as if CHP's main priority is keeping lanes open despite crew safety.

It's funny because my experience with CHP has been almost the opposite. I've never seen them hesitate to shut down the freeway even if we're only on the shoulder, and have never seen them pressure us to hurry up and move rigs out of the way. Heck half the time once we get the patient loaded up they want us to wait a bit while they ask a bunch of their own questions....to the point where I've seen Fire try to urge CHP to hurry up so we can clear off the freeway! I wonder if it's a divisional attitude or something?

 

[VentMonkey]

You might want to read the second link I put up there. The FF was actually holding C-Spine and actively caring for the patient per himself, his other firefighters and witnesses. The CHP officer also was reported to say that he "didn't care about the patients, and he wanted the engine moved".

Why? It'll hardly change my opinion. He cares about the entire scene. And the highlighted remark does nothing to make me want to read further into it. It was a laughably ridiculous ego trip from both parties. My guess is they'd had run ins with one another in the past.

I wonder if it's a divisional attitude or something?

It could be, or just individually based. Some have been very polite and cordial, others have been the same as @DesertMedic66 has mentioned. Guess I expect them to control the overall safety of the scene, not the individual patient(s).

Do we not expect this of LEO on a shooting or stabbing? Least that's the analogy I could come up with on such short notice. In other words, why would I expect the LEO to care about patient care?

I don't care about them telling me to move the unit to the point where I'd let myself get handcuffed.

 

[BobBarker]

Why? It'll hardly change my opinion. He cares about the entire scene. And the highlighted remark does nothing to make me want to read further into it. It was a laughably ridiculous ego trip from both parties. My guess is they'd had run ins with one another in the past.

It could be, or just individually based. Some have been very polite and cordial, others have been the same as @DesertMedic66 has mentioned. Guess I expect them to control the overall safety of the scene, not the individual patient(s).

Do we not expect this of LEO on a shooting or stabbing? Least that's the analogy I could come up with on such short notice. In other words, why would I expect the LEO to care about patient care?

I don't care about them telling me to move the unit to the point where I'd let myself get handcuffed.

I'm sure they had run ins in the past with each other because this normally wouldn't happen out of the blue. The engineer/FF in question was rendering direct patient care, so it's not like he can just jump up and move the rig, especially when your holding c-spine and preparing to transfer the patient to the gurney/ambulance. If you read the 2nd link, it stated an off-duty emt who was helping them prior EMS arrival was the one who stated that the firefighter was holding c-spine and helping them transfer the patient to the gurney, which would defeat your accusation of him, "Holding a flashlight or some crap".

From the article:
Mitchell, who was in the same vehicle as Hutton(off-duty emt), stated that when the CHP officer told the fireman to move the truck, the fireman was working on the injured patient at the time. (Dkt. No. 35-4, Mitchell Decl. ¶ 5.) The fireman was kneeling next to the patient and said, "I am in the middle of helping this patient." (Id. ¶ 6.) The CHP officer told him that he wanted him to stop caring for the patient and move the fire truck off the freeway and take it back to the station. (Id. ¶ 7.) The fireman replied "What about the patients?" and the CHP officer replied "I don't care about the patients, I just want you to leave." (Id. ¶ 8.) While she was there, she never heard the CHP officer ask about the condition of the patients or consult about how long or how many men were needed to help the two patients. (Id. ¶ 9.) The fireman was kneeling and preparing a backboard for the patient when the CHP officer approached and put the fireman in handcuffs. (Id. ¶ 10.)

Oh, and seeing how a judge agreed with the firefighter on most points in the lawsuit, the fact that both agencies met with each other to improve relations and it hasn't happened again to any firefighter in that area since, I say he made a point.

 

[VentMonkey]

Meh, neither of them proved much here to me, but I'm several county's removed from that rubbish anyhow. I'm sure everything is "hunky dory" now down that way.

I'll be sure to thank him next time he's unnecessarily blocking lanes of traffic causing a jam for something that so simply could have been resolved. Again, not changing my stance.

 

[BobBarker]

Meh, neither of them proved much here to me, but I'm several county's removed from that rubbish anyhow. I'm sure everything is "hunky dory" now down that way.

I'll be sure to thank him next time he's unnecessarily blocking lanes of traffic causing a jam for something that so simply could have been resolved. Again, not changing my stance.

No problem, you are certainly entitled to your opinion as everyone is. I think it was proven by the judge and witnesses that the traffic being blocked was actually necessary.

 

[DrParasite]

While I have never dealt with CHP, I have interacted with state troopers from multiple states during my career. Most are decent individuals, most will work with you, most have their priority being "keep the traffic flowing, close as few lanes as possible." followed by firefighter/EMS safety, but if you explain to them why you need a lane shut down, they will usually do it. Except if they are going to do an AI, than they have no issues shutting down every lane they need, for as long as they need to.

there are always two questions at scenes like this: who is legally in charge of the scene? don't give me any unified command BS, because if the cop IC and fire IC disagree (and they are both in the command post as US), someone has to make the decision and be held accountable. otherwise you would have a deadlock.

and second, if the firefighter felt the officer's directions were resulting in an unsafe scene, then the captain or lieutenant (or whomever was in charge of the crew), should have discussed it with the CHP trooper, and if the trooper insists of them moving, the engine crew should have all got into the engine and left, notifying dispatch on the radio "per Trooper 123, we have been ordered off the roadway, creating an unsafe situation. if they would like us back, we will need to have the CHP Sergeant or Lt meet us on the scene," and had their respective chief have a meeting with their chief the next day during business hours discuss the better way to deal with these situations.

BTW, I like to shut down all involved lanes as well as an extra lane to work in (if needed). But I also try to spend as little time on the roadway as possible.

 

[BobBarker]

While I have never dealt with CHP, I have interacted with state troopers from multiple states during my career. Most are decent individuals, most will work with you, most have their priority being "keep the traffic flowing, close as few lanes as possible." followed by firefighter/EMS safety, but if you explain to them why you need a lane shut down, they will usually do it. Except if they are going to do an AI, than they have no issues shutting down every lane they need, for as long as they need to.

there are always two questions at scenes like this: who is legally in charge of the scene? don't give me any unified command BS, because if the cop IC and fire IC disagree (and they are both in the command post as US), someone has to make the decision and be held accountable. otherwise you would have a deadlock.

and second, if the firefighter felt the officer's directions were resulting in an unsafe scene, then the captain or lieutenant (or whomever was in charge of the crew), should have discussed it with the CHP trooper, and if the trooper insists of them moving, the engine crew should have all got into the engine and left, notifying dispatch on the radio "per Trooper 123, we have been ordered off the roadway, creating an unsafe situation. if they would like us back, we will need to have the CHP Sergeant or Lt meet us on the scene," and had their respective chief have a meeting with their chief the next day during business hours discuss the better way to deal with these situations.

BTW, I like to shut down all involved lanes as well as an extra lane to work in (if needed). But I also try to spend as little time on the roadway as possible.

By law, CHP is in charge however while reading the lawsuit documents, they must consult with EMS/Fire before making a decision. The problem with the crew just leaving, is that they were actively helping a patient. Can you go from holding C-Spine on a patient and trying to load them on a gurney to just leaving the patient there in 5 seconds? No. They didn't do that because the patient would be left there until another ambulance crew had the time to load them up. If the firefighter/his crew wasn't actively helping a patient, I would agree they should just go. But he was, so they didn't.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Don't get me wrong, I have had some great experiences with CHP and then other times less than stellar. The good ones outweigh the bad ones.

But I would hardly consider pushing a wrecked car out of lanes with a CHP cruiser with everyone working about a foot away on a patient is the safest thing to do.

 

[CALEMT]

I'm just going to be the devils advocate here and I didn't read all the post... cause lazy. But law enforcement technically has control over the scene i.e. Cops tell you to move the rig you move it. Most of my experiences with CHP on TC's is more of "hey what do you guys need" I've never had a negative interaction as far as rig placement on scene.

 

[BobBarker]

I'm just going to be the devils advocate here and I didn't read all the post... cause lazy. But law enforcement technically has control over the scene i.e. Cops tell you to move the rig you move it. Most of my experiences with CHP on TC's is more of "hey what do you guys need" I've never had a negative interaction as far as rig placement on scene.

If you were in the middle of treating a patient, you would just let the patient be and leave?

 

[CALEMT]

If you were in the middle of treating a patient, you would just let the patient be and leave?

Just being the devils advocate. There are partners that you can delegate that task to or have the LEO move it. I've never had CHP ask us to move the ambulance or ask fire to move the engine.

I'm curious to what @chrls thinks about this.

 

[VentMonkey]

I'm curious to what @chrls thinks about this.

Wurd, @gotbeerz001 as well. Also, @gotbeerz001 got any beers today? Been a helluva day, bud.

I doubt the chippie will respond, and I don't blame him one bit.

 

[CALEMT]

I doubt the chippie will respond,

He's quite frequent on here, just doesn't post all that often. I summoned him via @... next I shall try a doughnut.

 

[VentMonkey]

He's quite frequent on here, just doesn't post all that often. I summoned him via @... next I shall try a doughnut.

Oh man, this made me LOL, perhaps the the beers, perhaps "The Gambler" courtesy of señor Kenny Rogers, either way it was perfect timing CAL, thanks, lol.

 

[DrParasite]

By law, CHP is in charge however while reading the lawsuit documents, they must consult with EMS/Fire before making a decision. The problem with the crew just leaving, is that they were actively helping a patient. Can you go from holding C-Spine on a patient and trying to load them on a gurney to just leaving the patient there in 5 seconds? No. They didn't do that because the patient would be left there until another ambulance crew had the time to load them up. If the firefighter/his crew wasn't actively helping a patient, I would agree they should just go. But he was, so they didn't.

Sure why not? the incident commander gave you a direct order, which would render the scene unsafe. best to pack up your toys and go home, especially if following the order would substantially and unnecessarily increase the danger level of the scene . if there are any negative outcomes, it falls on the person who gave the order, as he is in charge. And for the record, I have never heard that a cop needs to consult with anyone before making a LEO decision, and traffic control and accident investigation is a LEO decision (legally, operationally is a different story).

Taking it to the extreme, yes, leave the patient on the roadway. why? because XYZ CHP trooper ordered us to, and he was in charge of the scene, and legally it's his decision. Don't like it? have the legislative body pass a law saying that Fire or EMS is legally in charge of every MVA, and LEO need to follow their direction.

If you were in the middle of treating a patient, you would just let the patient be and leave?

Lets take this to the extreme: thoughtout the US, LEOs (particularly state troopers for some reason) has a well documented history of arresting firefighters for failing to follow their directions.

Legally, the LEO is in charge of the scene. If your supervisor were to give you a direct order, and he is legally in charge of you, why should you not follow it? after all, if anything bad come from it, he was the one who gave you the direct order, and he is (overall) responsible for everything that happens, both good and bad, on the scene.

We (fire and ems) fight these battles all the time,
https://www.statter911.com/2014/08/...ne-arrested-failing-obey-sheriff-crash-scene/
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1993-01-04/news/9301010633_1_clark-accident-fire-rescue
https://www.statter911.com/2016/12/...sted-for-shoving-cop-who-vented-burning-home/ (ok, this might have been justified legally, but still a poor decision by the cop)
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/health/safety/news.php?q=1203383265
https://www.firerescue1.com/inciden...for-apparatus-placement-awarded-17-500-in-Mo/
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2014/0...ds-up-handcuffed-in-the-back-of-a-police-car/
https://www.statter911.com/2014/02/...r-brother-arrested-traffic-control-spat-cops/

and a new clip with video of what happened in California

most of the time, the courts side with who had legal authority to be in charge of the scene, and whether or not the LEO had the legal authority to give a lawful order (but not always, it all depends on state law).

 

[VentMonkey]

It's not a new clip, DrP. I stand by what I said, it should have never came to that, smh.