FireFighter Arrested by CHP. Thoughts?

DrParasite

DrParasite

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you're right, it's not new, that was supposed to say "and now a clip with video of what happened."

and I agree, it should never have came to this, but the question is, and I think this is what the lawsuit is about, who was wrong in the situation?
 
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BobBarker

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DrParasite said:
Sure why not? the incident commander gave you a direct order, which would render the scene unsafe. best to pack up your toys and go home, especially if following the order would substantially and unnecessarily increase the danger level of the scene . if there are any negative outcomes, it falls on the person who gave the order, as he is in charge. And for the record, I have never heard that a cop needs to consult with anyone before making a LEO decision, and traffic control and accident investigation is a LEO decision (legally, operationally is a different story).

Taking it to the extreme, yes, leave the patient on the roadway. why? because XYZ CHP trooper ordered us to, and he was in charge of the scene, and legally it's his decision. Don't like it? have the legislative body pass a law saying that Fire or EMS is legally in charge of every MVA, and LEO need to follow their direction.

Lets take this to the extreme: thoughtout the US, LEOs (particularly state troopers for some reason) has a well documented history of arresting firefighters for failing to follow their directions.

Legally, the LEO is in charge of the scene. If your supervisor were to give you a direct order, and he is legally in charge of you, why should you not follow it? after all, if anything bad come from it, he was the one who gave you the direct order, and he is (overall) responsible for everything that happens, both good and bad, on the scene.

We (fire and ems) fight these battles all the time,
https://www.statter911.com/2014/08/...ne-arrested-failing-obey-sheriff-crash-scene/
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/1993-01-04/news/9301010633_1_clark-accident-fire-rescue
https://www.statter911.com/2016/12/...sted-for-shoving-cop-who-vented-burning-home/ (ok, this might have been justified legally, but still a poor decision by the cop)
http://www.fourwinds10.com/siterun_data/health/safety/news.php?q=1203383265
https://www.firerescue1.com/inciden...for-apparatus-placement-awarded-17-500-in-Mo/
http://www.theblaze.com/news/2014/0...ds-up-handcuffed-in-the-back-of-a-police-car/
https://www.statter911.com/2014/02/...r-brother-arrested-traffic-control-spat-cops/

and a new clip with video of what happened in California

most of the time, the courts side with who had legal authority to be in charge of the scene, and whether or not the LEO had the legal authority to give a lawful order (but not always, it all depends on state law).
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Directly from the Lawsuit/Judge:
Based on these statutes, management of the scene of an emergency vests in the CHP officers while patient health care management in an emergency vests in the paramedics/EMTs. Management of the scene requires the CHP officers to consult "with representatives of other response agencies at the scene to ensure that all appropriate resources are properly utilized", Cal. Penal Code § 409.3, and as it specifically relates to patient care, CHP officers must "consult emergency medical services personnel or other authoritative health care professionals at the scene in the determination of relevant risks," Cal. Health & Safety § 1798.6.

The CHP officer never consulted with the Fire Department, he just abirtrarily made his own decision, probably because he was interested in keeping as many lanes on the freeway open as possible. The CHP is not an expert in patient or medical care, so how would he know what resources are needed? And in that post, it said specifically that patient health care, which they admit the firefighter in question was performing(an off-duty emt directly said that), rests in FF/EMT. As an EMT/Medic/FF, you are also a patient advocate and you try to do what's best for your patient.
Also, the same charge that the CHP used to detain/arrest the firefighter, can also be applied to the officer: 148(a), willfully/delaying policer officers and/or EMT's from discharging their duties.
 
VentMonkey

VentMonkey

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@Billy D may I ask what your firsthand experience is with responding to the scene of a highway MVC as either a FF, LE, EMT or paramedic?
 
NysEms2117

NysEms2117

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@Billy D Is the LEO not a member of a response agency? was he/she not dispatched there? You'll learn this as well, you can consult with somebody then blatantly ignore whatever they say. They could have said, we need to be here, but when your the boss guess what.. you call the shots. As Dr. P said, if he tells you move, say "this will effect patient care" then move. Your scene is unsafe if your truck is not protecting you. However, he could have been setting up a blockage in the lane with other units half a mile down the road, idk.

One thing i learned on day 3 of my current job. Don't try to get legal unless your trained too, because you will look like an absolute fool to judges, or lawyers/prosecutors.

**curious here, how do you plan on arresting a police officer? you'd delay him from his duties as well... can't possible make the scene code 4 if the person trained to that is in handcuffs..**
 
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BobBarker

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NysEms2117 said:
@Billy D Is the LEO not a member of a response agency? was he/she not dispatched there? You'll learn this as well, you can consult with somebody then blatantly ignore whatever they say. They could have said, we need to be here, but when your the boss guess what.. you call the shots. As Dr. P said, if he tells you move, say "this will effect patient care" then move. Your scene is unsafe if your truck is not protecting you. However, he could have been setting up a blockage in the lane with other units half a mile down the road, idk.

One thing i learned on day 3 of my current job. Don't try to get legal unless your trained too, because you will look like an absolute fool to judges, or lawyers/prosecutors.

**curious here, how do you plan on arresting a police officer? you'd delay him from his duties as well... can't possible make the scene code 4 if the person trained to that is in handcuffs..**
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Yes. Yes and so was fire. They did exactly what you said, they told the officer they were treating patients and the officer said he didn't care about the patients and to move. The FF captain explained in the deposition that they saw the ambulance 50% into the #1 lane, so they positioned their fire engine 25ft behind it, to create a safety zone for themselves and the patients. I'm not saying to arrest the police officer, what I am saying is its ironic that the charge he used to arrest the FF on, is technically the same thing he did. And what does arresting a FF actively involved in patient care do? If he wants the driver of the engine to move it faster, how does arresting him expedite that? To be honest, only lawyers and judges
 
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NysEms2117

NysEms2117

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Billy D said:
Yes. Yes and so was fire. They did exactly what you said, they told the officer they were treating patients and the officer said he didn't care about the patients and to move. The FF captain explained in the deposition that they saw the ambulance 50% into the #1 lane, so they positioned their fire engine 25ft behind it, to create a safety zone for themselves and the patients. I'm not saying to arrest the police officer, what I am saying is its ironic that the charge he used to arrest the FF on, is technically the same thing he did. And what does arresting a FF actively involved in patient care do? If he wants the driver of the engine to move it faster, how does arresting him expedite that? To be honest, only lawyers and judges
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I just have a 1 sentence reply.
"Who is the boss, who calls the shots"? In my unofficial interpretation that is the officer. (right or wrong, thats not the discussion). He says do it, you do it. It's on him, as Dr. P mentioned. You say without that truck i dont feel safe, scene is not safe, you don't enter. pack up go home, sorry to the patient, but thats life.
 
Kevinf

Kevinf

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"I was just following orders" hasn't been an affirmative defense since the Nuremberg trials. Good on the firefighter for sticking to his guns.
 
DrParasite

DrParasite

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Kevinf said:
"I was just following orders" hasn't been an affirmative defense since the Nuremberg trials. Good on the firefighter for sticking to his guns.
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you sure about that? as much as I hate using wikipedia as a reference source, outside of committing Genocide, following a superiors orders has been used and courts have found it applicable for an individual not being held responsible for their actions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superior_orders, http://decisions.fct-cf.gc.ca/fc-cf/decisions/en/item/41405/index.do, http://web.archive.org/web/20060910...ularprograms/ils/workshop/fall04_Martinez.pdf

We aren't talking about committing a murder; we are talking about following an order given by the person in charge of an incident. Very big difference than what happened following WWII
 
Kevinf

Kevinf

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I failed to quote so that's my bad. I was specifically referring to the scenario where it would negatively affect patient care, holding c-spine and the like. If it comes down to it where EMS abandons patient care (with a negative outcome) because an officer was throwing orders around I wouldn't expect that crew to be off the hook just because a Statey was barking at them.
 
VentMonkey

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Kevinf said:
I wouldn't expect that crew to be off the hook just because a Statey was barking at them.
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Sorry for the derail, but I like learning regional lingo. This one's a humdinger.
 
CALEMT

CALEMT

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Interesting. Never seen it spelled like that. Always seen it spelled chippy. CHiPs is the other way I've seen it spelled.
 
NomadicMedic

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That's a regionalism. In Connecticut, where I grew up, State Police were always called "staties". Here in Georgia, they're "troopers".
 
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Alan L Serve

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We've had problems with the state troopers coming into the ambulance during assessment of a patient s/p MVA. When we kindly ask them to step out for both HIPAA and space issues they will snarl and sometimes threaten us with "interfering". (They barged into our ambulance and interfered with our patient care. How is this interfering?) We're a fire-based service so our chief went to their brass who pretended the behavior of the troopers is beyond reproach. It's a powder-keg and the troopers are giving off sparks. I love Bonnie, she's amazing.
 
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