When and How do you use "Self Defense" on the truck?

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Basermedic159

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When it appropriate to use "self defense" on the truck, and by what means of self defense do you utilize? Should EMS personnel be able to carry OC spray, ASP baton, taser or even a firearm?
 
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ffemt8978 said:
Contact Kip over at http://dt4ems.com/

Also, the subject of EMS being armed has come up on multiple occasions. Here's a few that a quick search revealed
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=26399
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=26041
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=26863
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=25178
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It's not just being armed. I wanted peoples opinions on when they will engage in a physical conflict with pt's and what they think warrants it. Not only that but I would like their take on the different "self defense" modalities different Fire/EMS personnel have or are willing to use when feeling threatened. I just threw EMS being armed in there to get takes on that as well.
 
Basermedic159 said:
It's not just being armed. I wanted peoples opinions on when they will engage in a physical conflict with pt's and what they think warrants it. Not only that but I would like their take on the different "self defense" modalities different Fire/EMS personnel have or are willing to use when feeling threatened. I just threw EMS being armed in there to get takes on that as well.
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Thank you for the links too!
 
Basermedic159 said:
It's not just being armed. I wanted peoples opinions on when they will engage in a physical conflict with pt's and what they think warrants it. Not only that but I would like their take on the different "self defense" modalities different Fire/EMS personnel have or are willing to use when feeling threatened. I just threw EMS being armed in there to get takes on that as well.
Click to expand...

Again, I strongly suggest you take a look at DT4EMS. Kip is a member here, but hasn't logged in since December. His program is specifically designed to deal with various aspects of self defense in EMS...including the legal aspects of it.
 
If I feel in danger then I will try to leave the scene ASAP. If im in the rig and my patient starts to get violent we pull over, dispatch PD, and the patient is free to leave the ambulance. If they don't want to leave the ambulance and want to start to fight then I have my metal clipboard, toughbook, and my partner to all help me until PD arrives.
 
What do you mean by engaging the patient? Simply subduing and restraining or going at it in the back of the truck and choking the patient out and then restraining him? Big difference there
 
If you're in the back and need to defend yourself, your best bet is hand to hand. The dimensions are going to limit your ability to draw and aim a weapon (aren't police taught that a knife wins vs holstered firearm if the knife starts within 20 feet?), swing a collapsible baton (don't forget about drawing that too). OC spray isn't a good choice because it also needs to be drawn and it will affect everyone inside. Personally, I'm willing to bet that it affects me (who hasn't been exposed to OC before) than the person I'm aiming it at.

Tasers, again issues with drawing it. It's also a one shot and done thing unless you have one that supports a "drive stun" option (think cattle prod type use).
 
ffemt8978 said:
Again, I strongly suggest you take a look at DT4EMS. Kip is a member here, but hasn't logged in since December. His program is specifically designed to deal with various aspects of self defense in EMS...including the legal aspects of it.
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Ok i'll do that
 
When ever I've been in a fight I've found that punching works well. Vigorous punching until your opponent is paralyzed, just to be sure.

And if anyone says having a gun is the answer they'll be getting the same treatment
 
I think every EMT should be issued a bazooka..... for self defense, just in case it's needed.
 
DrParasite said:
I think every EMT should be issued a bazooka..... for self defense, just in case it's needed.
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As long as you can get a concealed carry permit.

In 14 years I have never "engaged" with a patient. I've left the scene a fair few times, but never have fisticuffs ensued.

Has it come to fisticuffs I would have had to use my own concealed carry weapon:

chainsaw.jpg


FROM MY COLD DEAD HANDS! :rolleyes:
 
As stated, if it gets rowdy, I'm just going to back out and wait for a LEO. If that's not an option, I'm extremely confident in my ability to handle myself and restrain the patient until help arrives or I'm able to get myself out of the situation.
 
For me the thing about this topic is that in the very vast majority of confrontations that those working in EMS end up in can be diffused with words. Yet so much time is spent on physical defense tactics and how to improvise weapons. Frankly I'd rather spend some time thinking about how to improve my talk down skills considering how much more often they are used. But I digress.

Self defense is a little bit different for the EMS provider. In most cases, it should not be a fight, but rather a struggle for restraint. The best way to restrain someone is with a lot people, not by hitting them in the head with a portable 02 cylinder. I've never used my restraints in the field before because I do not trust that two people can restrain someone without an injury. I'd rather just talk them down or leave.
 
I was told once that every paramedic who gets smacked could have avoided it. I don't know that I agree with that entirely. However, I've been in quite a few fights outside of the job and I can confidently say that there was only one that I couldn't have avoided if I had just listened to the internal monologue that suggested walking away, shortly before it got bottled by another internal monologue that thought it was a good idea to sink 12 beers and call the biggest guy in the room a c**t.

My point of course is that I think the vast majority of violence is avoidable if you actually want to avoid it and you are not completely incapable of communicating politely with other human beings. Assuming you do and aren't, I still think a left hook can sometimes end up finding you anyway. In that case, maglites are long and heavy and my fear of getting sued/arrested/fired is not nearly as great as my fear of traumatic brain injuries, blood filled syringes and a lifetime of disability support payments.
 
DrParasite said:
I think every EMT should be issued a bazooka..... for self defense, just in case it's needed.
Click to expand...

Then dispatching would become the most dangerous job in the world :D
 
If a scene has the potential for violence my dispatch will have me stage until LEO is on scene. That being said, no scene is ever truly safe. For those situations how you conduct yourself plays a major role. Those of us who are older (I'm now 42). For some reason (my experience) most pts and/or bystanders tend to be more compliant/affable even if they're pissed off.

However, if things really go south I have no problem adopting the same philosophy of Monty Python in the Holy Grail: "Run away! Run away"!
 
I'm not a big guy 5'9" 150 lbs and I've been in a few situations where we ended up restraining a pt. My best advice is be wary of your surroundings. Don't let it escalate, try and take control before it gets to that point but if all else fails I have no problems grabbing someone's pinky and ring finger and twisting their arm up behind their back. They stop fighting real quick when they realize if they keep fighting they are going to break their own hand.
 
When? When I'm in danger.


What? Whatever I have to do, to end the threat to myself. I will be the winner. Most of the time that involves copious amounts of benzos and a few beefy firefighters.





As my medical director says, "Psych patients are just benzodiazepine deficient."
 
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