Salary

Robb said:
Like what? Please, enlighten me.

I love the guys and gals from the FDs around here. With that said, there's only a handful I trust as a primary provider. The EMTs and Medics that are truly interested in medicine don't work for fire the majority of the time. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Just like there are FDs that provide great medical care but that's not the norm.

Union, absolutely. I'm all ears. Other than that? No thanks.

We aren't going to see increase in salary until education standards increase, you've got it backwards. You know why salaries are low? Because the education standards are crap so the market is over saturated with "qualified" individuals.

There isn't much room at all for promotion within EMS.

This is an EMS website, fire fanboys should see www.firehouse.com for their FF forum needs. :rolleyes:
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I'm talking organizational structure, not medical care. If salaries increase, there will be more competition for the job and more people getting degrees.
 
CFal said:
I'm talking organizational structure, not medical care. If salaries increase, there will be more competition for the job and more people getting degrees.
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You're not going to see an increase in salary when there's a hundred people behind the guy that doesn't like it that will take the minimum wage.

Where's the motivation to pay us more without us bringing something to the table to make ourselves worth more?
 
CFal said:
If salaries increase, there will be more competition for the job and more people getting degrees.
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Uh, No. :rofl:

Let me know how that works out for you...
 
Robb said:
Really?

I can't decide if you're serious or not. This is a job. We work to support ourselves and our families... That involves being paid. While I do love my job and enjoy helping people you can bet your *** I sure as hell won't be doing it for free.

I don't understand the whole "if you're here for a paycheck you're here for the wrong reason." That's bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:. I don't work for fun. I work to have fun on my days off.

While I see your point NPO, I 100% disagree with you. There's no reason FFs and LEOs should get paid exponentially more than us. My old partner got hired as a SO deputy. Her training wage is nearly 4 dollars an hour more than I make as a paramedic. Once she clears her probation her salary is ~25k a year more than me working in the County Jail before she promotes to patrol and gets paid even more.

The county FD pays their fire medics nearly double what I make. I see, on average 9 patients a day in 12 hours while they see maybe 5 in a 48 hour shift and all they do is grab so vitals, ask some questions then pass off care to myself and my partner. How are you OK with that? Yea they have to maintain proficiency in two skill subsets but it definitely isn't worth double what I make.

McDonald's employees make more than most EMTs. I took nearly a two dollar an hour pay cut to go from getting paid to tan, watch girls and occasionally go out on a jet ski or rescue board to rescue someone.

I'd be willing to bet that salary is the biggest reason people leave EMS.
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I am serious. I am 20 years old. I do not hold a college degree or anything special to put me above EMT certification. I do not have a family to support.

Instead I am realistic about what I am worth and understand my place to work up to a higher paying salary such as paramedic or fire.
 
Until society finds a way to utilize EMS systems more (than just running calls) pay won't be that great. Put an EMT/Paramedic into an ER, make them tech and then run calls when they come in, come back to the ER and continue to tech, and you will see pay go up.

You have to find a way to utilize EMS personnel for more than the amount of time per shift they are being utilized now.


Whether that is by staffing public events, or doing preventive care and events, or utilizing your staff in the hospital system or at a clinic. Something....something has to be done before pay will increase

Fact is - I work as a ER tech at a 26 bed ER (8 more hallway beds and an internal wait area). My scope of practice as an ER tech is higher than that of an EMT-B (basically). I do EKG's, I vital people, I transport people, I place splints and casts on people, etc etc...I will be on my feet for the full 12 hour shift, I get a 30 minute lunch break, every room in the ER will be full with people in the hall way for an average of 7-8 hours out of a 12 hour shift, the place is busy...and I make less than an EMT-B at our local service. I can't wait to get out and start working paid for 9-1-1...its just flat out SO MUCH EASIER.....
 
Rialaigh said:
You have to find a way to utilize EMS personnel for more than the amount of time per shift they are being utilized now.

Fact is - I work as a ER tech at a 26 bed ER (8 more hallway beds and an internal wait area). My scope of practice as an ER tech is higher than that of an EMT-B (basically). I do EKG's, I vital people, I transport people, I place splints and casts on people, etc etc...
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EMTs in many places place EKG electrodes and are always able to take vitals, transport, and place splints. Full casts really don't have a place prehospitally, so that doesn't quite apply.
I don't think unit hour utilization is the biggest problem with compensation either. Many private urban systems are among the busiest of all EMS and also pay the worst wages. Picture all the primary IFT companies thay have their staff running their entire 12 hour shift and posting SSM on the little bit of downtime they have. The argument could be made that primary IFT is really a totally different animal than public utility or third service 911 response, but hours actually productive is still only one part of a larger issue.

The big thing to increase wages would have to be creating additional opportunities in EMS. This could come from adding hospital time or community paramedicine (as you mentioned), but I believe that added value will come from increased promotional opportunities and education more than just less free time. Right now, far too many of the youngest EMS recruits are only using this as a stepping stone for something else. To be perfectly honest, I'm doing the same thing. I love EMS and want to see it improve, but I don't plan on staying in this career for the next 40 years to retirement. As long as we have this vocational mindset instead of long term career, it will be hard to increase wages with high turnover constantly expected.
 
CFal said:
strong union is one, and most give a pay boost for a degree and they can get degrees while working.
They also have strong PR
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Quoted for truth. The only reason I'm currently completing my AAS in EMS right now is because it gives me 10 percent on the Lt exam, and 15 percent on the Capt I exam. A Bachelor's gives you 20% on the Capt II, and 25% on the BC test. I've actually a fair number of our newer firemedics coming in with EMS degrees. When asked why they got the degree, the typical answer is that it helps for promotion (not hiring).

It's common to assign blame to the fire service for retarding educational advancement in EMS, but outside of Oregon and maybe one other state, EMS employers typically ask for a GED, maybe experience, a valid cert, and a clean driving record. That's about it. All these hospital based, third service, and private EMS employers are equally at blame for maintaining consistently low hiring standards in regards to education. Look up Wake Co. NC right now. Lee County Fl. Charleston County SC. FDNY EMS. Any NYC hospital based EMS. Richmond Ambulance Authority. Any private company. King Co. Medic One. GED, cert, clean driving/criminal history. Back in 2007, with NR -P and NYC experience, I could have worked municipal in pretty much any state, and not have a problem getting hired.
 
Robb said:
Like what? Please, enlighten me.

I love the guys and gals from the FDs around here. With that said, there's only a handful I trust as a primary provider. The EMTs and Medics that are truly interested in medicine don't work for fire the majority of the time. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Just like there are FDs that provide great medical care but that's not the norm.

Union, absolutely. I'm all ears. Other than that? No thanks.

We aren't going to see increase in salary until education standards increase, you've got it backwards. You know why salaries are low? Because the education standards are crap so the market is over saturated with "qualified" individuals.

There isn't much room at all for promotion within EMS.

This is an EMS website, fire fanboys should see www.firehouse.com for their FF forum needs. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

No pay increase until mandatory degrees for employment. Most people don't want to martyr themselves with a degree when they're just going to make $11 - $15/hr for ALS in most places. Many people also don't stay in EMS long enough to organize for anything anyway. Catch -22.

After the AAS in EMS, I'm probably going to do Pub Admin with a minor in EM to grab a Chief level position, or at least mid level supervisor in EMS or fire after I retire, probably somewhere in the Southeast. That's much more useful and versatile than a BA or BS in EMS if your career goals involce mid to upper level supervisory positions.
 
Rialaigh said:
Until society finds a way to utilize EMS systems more (than just running calls) pay won't be that great. Put an EMT/Paramedic into an ER, make them tech and then run calls when they come in, come back to the ER and continue to tech, and you will see pay go up.

You have to find a way to utilize EMS personnel for more than the amount of time per shift they are being utilized now.


Whether that is by staffing public events, or doing preventive care and events, or utilizing your staff in the hospital system or at a clinic. Something....something has to be done before pay will increase

Fact is - I work as a ER tech at a 26 bed ER (8 more hallway beds and an internal wait area). My scope of practice as an ER tech is higher than that of an EMT-B (basically). I do EKG's, I vital people, I transport people, I place splints and casts on people, etc etc...I will be on my feet for the full 12 hour shift, I get a 30 minute lunch break, every room in the ER will be full with people in the hall way for an average of 7-8 hours out of a 12 hour shift, the place is busy...and I make less than an EMT-B at our local service. I can't wait to get out and start working paid for 9-1-1...its just flat out SO MUCH EASIER.....
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Yes, for an EMS employer to be regarded as indispensable to the taxpayers, they need to snake in to as many different areas as they can. How about replacing school nurses, for example? The school medic could ride with the patient to the hospital instead of handing the child off to another provider, and the medic who arrived in the ambulance could staff the school office until the other medic returns. Same deal for Urgent Care facilities. Medics certaily get paid less than nurses, so there's an added cost saving measure.
 
I always thought being a paramedic was much more of a skill set rather than an all inclusive career. It's a pretty effective skill set when combined with other skills, such as administrative or research or educational or firefighting, law enforcement/security, nursing or allied health, etc. there's quite a bit of upward mobility if your capable or willing or able to combine it with something.

EMT->Medic->B.S.->P.A. is a pretty nice professional pathway I think.

I suppose I mean to say that we are all entrepreneurs of at least one enterprise: ourselves. Perhaps it should be less of 'they won't pay me enough for the skills I provide' and more of 'I'm going to develop a valuable set of skills, find the right market, and sell at the price I am happy with'.
 
Rialaigh said:
Until society finds a way to utilize EMS systems more (than just running calls) pay won't be that great. Put an EMT/Paramedic into an ER, make them tech and then run calls when they come in, come back to the ER and continue to tech, and you will see pay go up.

You have to find a way to utilize EMS personnel for more than the amount of time per shift they are being utilized now.


Whether that is by staffing public events, or doing preventive care and events, or utilizing your staff in the hospital system or at a clinic. Something....something has to be done before pay will increase

Fact is - I work as a ER tech at a 26 bed ER (8 more hallway beds and an internal wait area). My scope of practice as an ER tech is higher than that of an EMT-B (basically). I do EKG's, I vital people, I transport people, I place splints and casts on people, etc etc...I will be on my feet for the full 12 hour shift, I get a 30 minute lunch break, every room in the ER will be full with people in the hall way for an average of 7-8 hours out of a 12 hour shift, the place is busy...and I make less than an EMT-B at our local service. I can't wait to get out and start working paid for 9-1-1...its just flat out SO MUCH EASIER.....
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Around here, there's no way that's possible, we're too busy to even leave the rigs some days.
 
exodus said:
Around here, there's no way that's possible, we're too busy to even leave the rigs some days.
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Same here.

It's slowed down a bit lately but it's pretty common for us to run back to back all day long. Constantly in motion. Maybe we aren't on our feet for 12 hours but I've had days where I've driven 300-350 miles going to calls and doing post moves. That's exhausting by itself then add in patient care from the mental and physical aspect as well as charting...it makes for a busy day.
 
Robb said:
You're not going to see an increase in salary when there's a hundred people behind the guy that doesn't like it that will take the minimum wage.

Where's the motivation to pay us more without us bringing something to the table to make ourselves worth more?
Click to expand...

Where's there motivation to get a degree when you are making the same as someone without?
 
EMS also needs to put in a better chain of command, look at fire for this. Do they need as many officer's as they have? probably not, but it shows FFs that there is progression upwards, for the most part there is basics and medics and not much to advance past that.
 
Robb said:
Same here.

It's slowed down a bit lately but it's pretty common for us to run back to back all day long. Constantly in motion. Maybe we aren't on our feet for 12 hours but I've had days where I've driven 300-350 miles going to calls and doing post moves. That's exhausting by itself then add in patient care from the mental and physical aspect as well as charting...it makes for a busy day.
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Same here. We're way too busy and could stand to add a couple units but it wont happen. That costs money and eats up profit.

Instead we beat everyone to death every shift with posting and a high volume. Then the uppers wonder why people dont want to hang around and the ones that do are unhappy.

Its impossible to make this 20 year career doing SSM. ive only been in this atmosphere for 4 years and Im looking for my way out.
 
CFal said:
EMS also needs to put in a better chain of command, look at fire for this. Do they need as many officer's as they have? probably not, but it shows FFs that there is progression upwards, for the most part there is basics and medics and not much to advance past that.
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Where is the room for a fire style chain of command in EMS? Fire runs multiple apparatuses with multiple crew members whereas an ambulance has two people crew members and either the more senior employee or the highest medically trained is in charge. Many larger fire departments are split into divisions as well that adds more room for supervisory positions. Above them there are your field supervisors then you get into administrative positions. There just isn't room for that setup in my opinion.

The salary thing isn't going to change overnight. It's going to take a nationwide overhaul of our EMS system and education requirements to reduce the over saturation the job market before we can even think about a worthwhile boost in the national average salary. There are places out there that pay their medics well, it's just not the norm.
 
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It's not uncommon to see people with much more time invested BA/BS/MS/PhD and with family do complete 180 into a different career path because they are not satisfied with pay or the job.

Yet it's constant whining wah we did this 3 months course why 10 dollars an hour?

I guess you could wait and hope that things change lol. Or you could research a career that offers the compensation that you seek, and work your *** off now to get it or you can keep whining.
 
Ecgg said:
It's not uncommon to see people with much more time invested BA/BS/MS/PhD and with family do complete 180 into a different career path because they are not satisfied with pay or the job.

Yet it's constant whining wah we did this 3 months course why 10 dollars an hour?

I guess you could wait and hope that things change lol. Or you could research a career that offers the compensation that you seek, and work your *** off now to get it or you can keep whining.
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Was that directed at me or a general you?
 
CFal said:
Where's there motivation to get a degree when you are making the same as someone without?
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Because all those people with humanities degrees are cashing in right?

I get what your saying here, and indeed that is a motivational factor for many. However extrinsic and intrinsic motivation are often helpful when working towards goals such as a higher degree.
 
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