Salary

[Niesje]

would it be nice to be making what fire or pd makes? Yeah.
Should we be paid more than $10/hr? Yeah.

But i don't do my job for the paycheck, i do it because i look forward to going to work. Because i like what i do and the people i serve.

Even with the high cost of living in ca i make due with $10.50/hr, and i get 18mpg on a one hour commute. Far from optimal, but i keep showing up every day.

You can't do this job for the paycheck. You have to do it because you want to.

this^^^

 

[Wheel]

I am sorry you do not understand...... I am not sure what else to say with out wasting my breathe.

It's not worth it.

 

[Ecgg]

Who would of thought to get the big bucks in medicine you actually have to get some formal education?

 

[JPINFV]

Remember, that third year EM resident who is practically running the ED earns about 13-14 dollars an hour too. 50k isn't exactly a lot when working in the 60-80 hour range.

I disagree.

How valuable to the economy is a fry cook?

If that's the measuring stick that you want to use, than a lot more than an EMT or paramedic. I can't think of the last time I needed EMS. The last time I needed a fry cook was last week. Also garbage men would be paid like physicians.

 

[JPINFV]

At least many of the fast food service workers are in college getting an education to move up rather than whining.

The engineering major asks "how?"
The science major asks "what?"
The economics major asks "how much?"
The humanities major asks "would you like fries with that?"
The liberal arts major calls their parents, complains about how unfair the world is, and pretends to be homeless in order to "make a point" (i.e. Occupy ____)

 

[Sandog]

The engineering major asks "how?"
The science major asks "what?"
The economics major asks "how much?"
The humanities major asks "would you like fries with that?"
The liberal arts major calls their parents, complains about how unfair the world is, and pretends to be homeless in order to "make a point" (i.e. Occupy ____)

Now that is funny, don't care who you are. lol. But the engineering major would also design a money machine The science major would use the money to analyze the flaws in the money machine, the economics major would be looking for a cheaper way to make the machine and the humanities major would question the ethics of it all, the liberal arts major would wonder if you could roll the money paper up and smoke it...

 

[ExpatMedic0]

The engineering major asks "how?"
The science major asks "what?"
The economics major asks "how much?"
The humanities major asks "would you like fries with that?"
The liberal arts major calls their parents, complains about how unfair the world is, and pretends to be homeless in order to "make a point" (i.e. Occupy ____)

:rofl::rofl::rofl:

 

[46Young]

Would it be nice to be making what Fire or PD makes? Yeah.
Should we be paid more than $10/hr? Yeah.

But I don't do my job for the paycheck, I do it because I look forward to going to work. Because I like what I do and the people I serve.

Even with the high cost of living in CA I make due with $10.50/hr, and I get 18mpg on a one hour commute. Far from optimal, but I keep showing up every day.

You can't do this job for the paycheck. You have to do it because you want to.

The problem is, most people that get into EMS (other than a necessary evil to get a fire job) have the same outlook as you. I was no different. I just wanted to get into the game; pay was largely irrelevant at first. I just wanted to build a work history for my resume, and look for a better opportunity down the road.

The problem is, when most people have this outlook, you reach market saturation with EMS applicants, so the employer can pay whatever they want, usually as little as they can.

 

[RocketMedic]

Fry cook was legitimately a harder, less awesome job than paramedic.

 

[Arovetli]

Remember, that third year EM resident who is practically running the ED earns about 13-14 dollars an hour too. 50k isn't exactly a lot when working in the 60-80 hour range.




If that's the measuring stick that you want to use, than a lot more than an EMT or paramedic. I can't think of the last time I needed EMS. The last time I needed a fry cook was last week. Also garbage men would be paid like physicians.

Many people work 50-80 hours and make less than 50k. On a historical and global scale, we should all be so lucky to have so much, though I am as irrational and greedy as anyone else. I have no qualms about keeping medicare expenditures, and in turn resident income, low. (The tuition and loan situation is another matter). The pay is low because it can be low, there is no incentive to change it, and perhaps increased funds would be better put to use to fund additional slots.

I am not sure how to respond to your statement on labor value.

I cant make value comparisons between the four professions mentioned as they respond to much different forces and thus has different values. You would need to generate a curve and mathematical model for each job, they are not interchangeable or readily comparable. I would also challenge your confusion of economic need vs. want, though I understand your colloquial usage of the terms.

I apologize for the confusion if you misunderstood my point, but I am more of the neoclassical subjective LTV school of thought.

In brief, for the purpose of fry cooks, the largest determinant of their value is the convenience they produce. other determinants being ease of replacement and workforce entry, minimal marginal utility, and elasticity of labor demand, among others.

The open market curves do not presently favor a high wage value for standard fry cooks. To raise wages involves some sort of wage/price floor, resulting in a reduced profit in the firm, and thus an increased cost to the consumer, thus a decreased convenience. For the typical QSR fry cook, being cheap and easy is fundamental, as cheap and easy is the product they are selling. However, there are many factors at play, and consumers are free to determine value as they wish, although I would posit that in an open reflexive market a higher paid fry cook would need to generate enough of a comparative advantage to offset the price increase. (similar to the 5 guys burgers model) Though then we open the door to discussing assigning precentage value to the worker vs. the firm for the increased revenue, which is difficult.

Though I will acknowledge the labor market is not truly open.

So...that is(are) the measuring stick(s) I am using...

I would guess that your thinking is more along the lines of an old thought experiment known as the 'diamond-water' paradox. Allowing for consumer subjective freedom helps resolves that. Wikipedia may help if you wish a deeper understanding.

As confusing as all that is, basically I am presupposing the company is going to act to maximize revenues. Often, this entails keeping wages low, prices low, the inexorable link and elasticity of the two.


Perhaps to clarify I would suggest that the wage/labor curve responds to a much more rational assumption that workers wish to be compensated for their labor. They own their own labor and sell it accordingly.

For EMS, there is much more irrationality (in an economic sense) in the mix as laborers are willing to work for free or reductions in income out of the goodness of their hearts., or because it is cool and fun, or because it is a stepping stone to better things. This factor reduces the ability to quantify the labor value, and I would think, reduces the income but offsets it by exchanging other consideration. If this is the case, and I believe it is, it diminishes the value of EMS over the long run, and the maximal "income" is garnered roughly around 3-7 years. It is an occupation best enjoyed in the short run. Interestingly this time frame is probably where the majority of folks leave the field...though I wont speak to causality.

 

[JPINFV]

Many people work 50-80 hours and make less than 50k. On a historical and global scale, we should all be so lucky to have so much, though I am as irrational and greedy as anyone else. I have no qualms about keeping medicare expenditures, and in turn resident income, low. (The tuition and loan situation is another matter). The pay is low because it can be low, there is no incentive to change it, and perhaps increased funds would be better put to use to fund additional slots.

Well, the vast majority of people benefit from keeping other people's wages low. If ____ is paid less, than _____ service is cheaper.

You would need to generate a curve and mathematical model for each job, they are not interchangeable or readily comparable. I would also challenge your confusion of economic need vs. want, though I understand your colloquial usage of the terms.

I apologize for the confusion if you misunderstood my point, but I am more of the neoclassical subjective LTV school of thought.

In brief, for the purpose of fry cooks, the largest determinant of their value is the convenience they produce. other determinants being ease of replacement and workforce entry, minimal marginal utility, and elasticity of labor demand, among others.

The open market curves do not presently favor a high wage value for standard fry cooks. To raise wages involves some sort of wage/price floor, resulting in a reduced profit in the firm, and thus an increased cost to the consumer, thus a decreased convenience. For the typical QSR fry cook, being cheap and easy is fundamental, as cheap and easy is the product they are selling. However, there are many factors at play, and consumers are free to determine value as they wish, although I would posit that in an open reflexive market a higher paid fry cook would need to generate enough of a comparative advantage to offset the price increase. (similar to the 5 guys burgers model) Though then we open the door to discussing assigning precentage value to the worker vs. the firm for the increased revenue, which is difficult.

Though I will acknowledge the labor market is not truly open.

So...that is(are) the measuring stick(s) I am using...

I would guess that your thinking is more along the lines of an old thought experiment known as the 'diamond-water' paradox. Allowing for consumer subjective freedom helps resolves that. Wikipedia may help if you wish a deeper understanding.

As confusing as all that is, basically I am presupposing the company is going to act to maximize revenues. Often, this entails keeping wages low, prices low, the inexorable link and elasticity of the two.

It depends on what matrix you use to determine value. The problem is that EMS often goes into the "We save lives" chant (normally followed by a grunt and a fart). By that matrix alone, public health is more important than medicine. Clean water, clean streets, and a sewage system saves a whole lot more lives than even the best EMS system. Similarly, by a simplistic "how much do I use ___ service," emergency services in general are low on that list since generally people don't need them. When you do need them, you -need- them, but it's not a day in/day out need. Now in terms of value added to society, there's multiple issues. One is, and I agree, it's difficult to measure. How many "lives" does EMS save, and what's the economic impact of that? By having service jobs that prepare food, how much efficiency, and by connection production, does that add? Certainly getting food from a roach coach is quicker than making it yourself. Similarly, what about non-monetary contributions? EMS providing pain relief doesn't produce a positive economic benefit (it also doesn't save lives). However neither of those can be used to suggest that EMS should not provide pain control.

Economics are terrible at quantifying non-economic benefits.

Perhaps to clarify I would suggest that the wage/labor curve responds to a much more rational assumption that workers wish to be compensated for their labor. They own their own labor and sell it accordingly.

The problem is that the concept of people selling their labor (i.e. selling themselves) is seen as dirty, and most people don't view their role in the job market in that manner. Of course when only one side of the table is interested in actually negotiating, labor price battles becomes rather one sided.

 

[Clipper1]

Don't waste it, this has gotten ridiculous.

The troll comment always shows up when some in EMS don't want to believe their profession is not perfect. Other professions have responded to what the needs are for their industry and made changes. EMS still wants to argue the minimum is good enough and that respect or entitlement just comes with the certification.

 

[Arovetli]

Well, the vast majority of people benefit from keeping other people's wages low. If ____ is paid less, than _____ service is cheaper.




It depends on what matrix you use to determine value. The problem is that EMS often goes into the "We save lives" chant (normally followed by a grunt and a fart). By that matrix alone, public health is more important than medicine. Clean water, clean streets, and a sewage system saves a whole lot more lives than even the best EMS system. Similarly, by a simplistic "how much do I use ___ service," emergency services in general are low on that list since generally people don't need them. When you do need them, you -need- them, but it's not a day in/day out need. Now in terms of value added to society, there's multiple issues. One is, and I agree, it's difficult to measure. How many "lives" does EMS save, and what's the economic impact of that? By having service jobs that prepare food, how much efficiency, and by connection production, does that add? Certainly getting food from a roach coach is quicker than making it yourself. Similarly, what about non-monetary contributions? EMS providing pain relief doesn't produce a positive economic benefit (it also doesn't save lives). However neither of those can be used to suggest that EMS should not provide pain control.

Economics are terrible at quantifying non-economic benefits.



The problem is that the concept of people selling their labor (i.e. selling themselves) is seen as dirty, and most people don't view their role in the job market in that manner. Of course when only one side of the table is interested in actually negotiating, labor price battles becomes rather one sided.

Indeed, it is impossible to fully quantify behavior. Altuism alters much, and health economics is a far different subset responding to atypical forces. Insurance causes problems.

Though I'd say EMS providing pain management does produce economic benefits, if only to increase customer valuation of the service. A clean ambulance does not improve patient care or reimbursement directly, however having unsightly trucks may effect the consumer perception, contracts, satisfaction, etc.

Presently the majority function of American EMS is logistical. Providing life support, while noble, is sometimes economically valued as if it were refrigerating a perishable good in transit. Though that is the bulk of the job, and I say that not to diminish the importance of ALS care in the field or devalue life.

 

[STXmedic]

The troll comment always shows up when some in EMS don't want to believe their profession is not perfect. Other professions have responded to what the needs are for their industry and made changes. EMS still wants to argue the minimum is good enough and that respect or entitlement just comes with the certification.

Oh, no, you misunderstand me. I'm fully aware of how :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty and ***-backwards our EMS system is. I am actively trying to get out and advance further. You're addressing the wrong person with that comment.

The troll comments tend to come from when somebody makes completely moronic remarks, or make completely asinine and non sensible arguments. If you feel that it seems to be directed towards you frequently, you may consider evaluating the quality and validity of your rebuttals.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Would it be nice to be making what Fire or PD makes? Yeah.
Should we be paid more than $10/hr? Yeah.

But I don't do my job for the paycheck, I do it because I look forward to going to work. Because I like what I do and the people I serve.

Even with the high cost of living in CA I make due with $10.50/hr, and I get 18mpg on a one hour commute. Far from optimal, but I keep showing up every day.

You can't do this job for the paycheck. You have to do it because you want to.

Really?

I can't decide if you're serious or not. This is a job. We work to support ourselves and our families... That involves being paid. While I do love my job and enjoy helping people you can bet your *** I sure as hell won't be doing it for free.

I don't understand the whole "if you're here for a paycheck you're here for the wrong reason." That's bull:censored::censored::censored::censored:. I don't work for fun. I work to have fun on my days off.

While I see your point NPO, I 100% disagree with you. There's no reason FFs and LEOs should get paid exponentially more than us. My old partner got hired as a SO deputy. Her training wage is nearly 4 dollars an hour more than I make as a paramedic. Once she clears her probation her salary is ~25k a year more than me working in the County Jail before she promotes to patrol and gets paid even more.

The county FD pays their fire medics nearly double what I make. I see, on average 9 patients a day in 12 hours while they see maybe 5 in a 48 hour shift and all they do is grab so vitals, ask some questions then pass off care to myself and my partner. How are you OK with that? Yea they have to maintain proficiency in two skill subsets but it definitely isn't worth double what I make.

McDonald's employees make more than most EMTs. I took nearly a two dollar an hour pay cut to go from getting paid to tan, watch girls and occasionally go out on a jet ski or rescue board to rescue someone.

I'd be willing to bet that salary is the biggest reason people leave EMS.

 

[CFal]

You have to increase the salary to retain quality EMTs and medics. When you get a hgigher salary then you will start seeing more education getting degrees for promotion, EMS can learn a lot from fire.

 

[STXmedic]

You have to increase the salary to retain quality EMTs and medics. When you get a hgigher salary then you will start seeing more education getting degrees for promotion, EMS can learn a lot from fire.

What exactly do you propose EMS learns from fire? A strong union is about the only thing I hope EMS learns from them.

 

[CFal]

What exactly do you propose EMS learns from fire? A strong union is about the only thing I hope EMS learns from them.

strong union is one, and most give a pay boost for a degree and they can get degrees while working.
They also have strong PR

 

[Handsome Robb]

You have to increase the salary to retain quality EMTs and medics. When you get a hgigher salary then you will start seeing more education getting degrees for promotion, EMS can learn a lot from fire.

Like what? Please, enlighten me.

I love the guys and gals from the FDs around here. With that said, there's only a handful I trust as a primary provider. The EMTs and Medics that are truly interested in medicine don't work for fire the majority of the time. Obviously there are exceptions to that rule. Just like there are FDs that provide great medical care but that's not the norm.

Union, absolutely. I'm all ears. Other than that? No thanks.

We aren't going to see increase in salary until education standards increase, you've got it backwards. You know why salaries are low? Because the education standards are crap so the market is over saturated with "qualified" individuals.

There isn't much room at all for promotion within EMS.

This is an EMS website, fire fanboys should see www.firehouse.com for their FF forum needs.

 

[BigBad]

I make $21 an hr as a medic and make KILLING in overtime. You will never make a living as a basic, but its good foot in the door and experience. If its money you want, go to nursing school, work in the icu for 3 years then get on flights.