Salary

The answer is simple ladies and gentlemen. Raise national education standards (to include mandatory degrees) and you will effectively rid yourself of "Redneck Rickie Rescue."
They took our jobs! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIHDI9bXQ3k
 
EMS providers are paid what their labor is worth to those signing their paychecks....no more and no less.

Basically what happens is this: A private agency will take their revenue (what they can bill from insurance, plus any contractual stipends), subtract overhead and capital expenses, take a fat chunk for the owners or shareholders, and divide what's left among the employees in the form of wages and benefits. A public agency has differences, but is more similar than not.

The primary reason why paramedics don't make a lot of money is the simple fact that medical transportation isn't a lucrative business, so there just isn't that much money to go around. Revenue is low and costs are high. That's all.

The second reason why paramedics don't make much is that the supply vs. demand of labor is not in the paramedics' favor. Most areas have more paramedics than the number of positions will support, so it puts downward pressure on wages. It is an employer's market.


Corky said:
i love volunteers but they are the reason career EMS staff are paid so little
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This idea is way overblown.

I would submit that most EMS compensation rates are relatively unaffected by volunteers. I don't doubt that it is a factor in some cases, but I think it is probably a much smaller factor than it is generally credited as being.

Remember what I wrote above: 1) there is only so much money to go around, and 2) labor supply:demand balance is important. Volunteers don't have much affect on either of those, in most cases.

Usually, volunteers cover low-volume areas that would bring little revenue to commercial agencies and would create few jobs. Only a few full-time paramedics would need to be hired to replace a department of dozens of volunteers, so if the vollies went away, the overall impact on the balance of labor supply:demand is pretty minimal, as would be the impact on wages.

If you think about it, the existence of volunteers in some cases probably supports wages. Because if you wipe out a volunteer agency with 20 volunteer paramedics, what will you replace it with? 5 or 6 full time paramedics? Assuming the vollies want to stay involved in EMS, they will now be competing for those 5 or 6 positions, meaning the supply:demand ratio is tipped further into the employers favor, and more downward pressure is put on wages.

So it's more complicated than it looks on the surface. Be careful what you wish for.

Corky said:
While that is true it is no different then nursing and there wages are not so disproportionately low.
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I'm not sure where the myth that "nurses don't volunteer" got started. I've volunteered more as a nurse than I have as a paramedic. Many nurses I know volunteer regularly.

And I've never heard a nurse blame their low wages on the fact that another nurse volunteers at the shelter or crisis pregnancy center or summer camp a few hours a week.
 
Halothane said:
And I've never heard a nurse blame their low wages on the fact that another nurse volunteers at the shelter or crisis pregnancy center or summer camp a few hours a week.
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Oh, so you volunteer in the hospital doing the same job as your paid comrades in the same department? If you volunteer with your full scope of practice in a level 1 trauma center doing the same work as the paid RN's, only for free, your argument holds some validity. I don't think hanging out at the soup kitchen counts in this case. Volunteer EMS folks are actually filling the same slots as the paid folks. Unlike nursing, there are not many roles for Paramedics and EMT's outside of pre-hospital transport.
 
ExpatMedic0 said:
The answer is simple ladies and gentlemen. Raise national education standards (to include mandatory degrees)
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Unfortunately, the idea that increased education automatically equals increased pay is false. Increased education makes you more valuable only if it increases your productivity.

Ever wonder why someone with a master's degree working at Walmart or Mcdonald's makes the same as their co-workers with a GED? It's because your employer doesn't pay you for your education, they pay you for your productivity.

So, if your increased education means you can be more productive for your employer, you will be more valuable to them, and they will pay your more.

However, if your increased education doesn't enable you to do things that will allow your employer to bill at a higher rate, your employer will probably not pay you more. This is exactly why a paramedic's pay doesn't go way up when they finish their BS in physiology or nursing.

This partly explains why EMS agencies like to be "paramedic level" and are willing to pay paramedics more than EMT's, even though the vast majority of transports can be safely handled by an EMT. It's because the company can bill at a higher rate for many transports, even if those transports could've been safely handled by a basic. Charge 50% more for many of the transports you do, yet pay your employee just a few dollars more per hour? Sure, increasing education from EMT to paramedic is a great deal for the employer. But ONLY because they can bill more.
 
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ExpatMedic0 said:
Oh, so you volunteer in the hospital doing the same job as your paid comrades in the same department? If you volunteer with your full scope of practice in a level 1 trauma center doing the same work as the paid RN's, only for free, your argument holds some validity. I don't think hanging out at the soup kitchen counts in this case. Volunteer EMS folks are actually filling the same slots as the paid folks. Unlike nursing, there are not many roles for Paramedics and EMT's outside of pre-hospital transport.
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So maybe THAT'S why paramedics don't make more?

That was by far the most minor of all the points I made in that post, anyway.
 
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Halothane said:
Unfortunately, the idea that increased education automatically equals increased pay is false.
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I agree with you somewhat here. I posted this long ago somewhere in the thread and used teachers as an example. It may or may not increase pay, but I think it would eliminate a lot of volunteers and help push things forward professionally as a whole.
 
Not quite the same thing there halothane. Show me a nurse that volunteers to work ER shifts or icu shifts..... Not going to happen
 
Corky said:
Not quite the same thing there halothane. Show me a nurse that volunteers to work ER shifts or icu shifts..... Not going to happen
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How isn't it the same thing? Nurses work a lot more places than just the ED or ICU.

Those jobs that the nurses are volunteering for would have to be paid positions, if someone weren't willing to do it for free.

If that logic is sound when applied to paramedics, I don't see why it isn't sound when applied to nurses.

Right?
 
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True. But this is a discussion about emergency services not hospice and the like
 
Halothane said:
Unfortunately, the idea that increased education automatically equals increased pay is false. Increased education makes you more valuable only if it increases your productivity.

Ever wonder why someone with a master's degree working at Walmart or Mcdonald's makes the same as their co-workers with a GED? It's because your employer doesn't pay you for your education, they pay you for your productivity.

So, if your increased education means you can be more productive for your employer, you will be more valuable to them, and they will pay your more.

However, if your increased education doesn't enable you to do things that will allow your employer to bill at a higher rate, your employer will probably not pay you more. This is exactly why a paramedic's pay doesn't go way up when they finish their BS in physiology or nursing.

This partly explains why EMS agencies like to be "paramedic level" and are willing to pay paramedics more than EMT's, even though the vast majority of transports can be safely handled by an EMT. It's because the company can bill at a higher rate for many transports, even if those transports could've been safely handled by a basic. Charge 50% more for many of the transports you do, yet pay your employee just a few dollars more per hour? Sure, increasing education from EMT to paramedic is a great deal for the employer. But ONLY because they can bill more.
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This makes a lot of sense- similar to how fire departments will go full-bore ISO despite a lack of real need to get lower insurance ratings?
 
To those who are saying that working as an EMT is easier than working at McDonalds my only question to you is where in the hell do you work ?


I work in southern california my operation averages over 150,000 calls a year alone, this month alone it is over 100* every day, we have a majority of geriatric patients, lots of traumas, 1 trauma center in my local area, no STEMI centers for atleast 40 min.

Ive been nearly stabbed, ive fractured my nose, I've been punched, kicked, bitten, spit on thrown up on, pooped, peed on. And had to do it all while keeping a good attitude.

Now please tell me how McDonalds work is harder
 
EMTelite said:
Now please tell me how McDonalds work is harder
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Ya, as I said earlier in the thread, I worked at Mcdonalds when I was 16 in high school. It was my first "real" job, I have also worked as an EMT and a Paramedic. So I am in a position to comment on both. I never had a gun pulled on me at Mccdonalds but I have in EMS. I have also been assaulted multiple times in EMS but never at McDonalds. I was not exposed to driving hazards, and my infectious disease exposure was probably limited. Mentally handicapped people worked beside me at Mccdonalds, and most of our employee's where either students or disabled people. There was no education required, majority of the employees did not hold a GED or high school diploma and received only "on the job training." I know standards for EMT are low, way to low... but many of the people suggesting Mcdonalds employees deserve higher wages than EMT's are simply trolls and trying to get a rise out of you. I would be very surprised if any of those people have walked a day in either a EMT or Mcdonalds employee's shoes.
 
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ExpatMedic0 said:
Ya, as I said earlier in the thread, I worked at Mcdonalds when I was 16 in high school. It was my first "real" job, I have also worked as an EMT and a Paramedic. So I am in a position to comment on both. I never had a gun pulled on me at Mccdonalds but I have in EMS. I have also been assaulted multiple times in EMS but never at McDonalds. I was not exposed to driving hazards, and my infectious disease exposure was probably limited. Mentally handicapped people worked beside me at Mccdonalds, and most of our employee's where either students or disabled people. There was no education required, majority of the employees did not hold a GED or high school diploma and received only "on the job training." I know standards for EMT are low, way to low... but many of the people suggesting Mcdonalds employees deserve higher wages than EMT's are simply trolls and trying to get a rise out of you. I would be very surprised if any of those people have walked a day in either a EMT or Mcdonalds employee's shoes.
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Now the cool at the Waffle House? He earns his money.
 
I didn't read all of these posts but it doesn't offend me that someone at mcdonald's would make more than me. Used to work there in highschool and it wasn't one bit rewarding. I haven't been an EMT long but I can tell you already that it is a million times more rewarding than wrapping mcdoubles. Another thing is that if you were at mcd's, you can maybe move up to a manager position there ...but big deal, right?
I'm 22 and my local station paid for my EMT-B class, books, CPR cert, and paid for my national registry test etc. Pretty sweet deal if you ask me. But anyway, if you are an EMT-B you can always move up to the paramedic level and then there are other opportunities you can pursue as well. I've heard of employers paying for medic classes too. I figure I'm young and this is a great stepping stone. I know plenty of kids my age that are in college, thousands of dollars in debt, no job, studying a major where they probably won't be able to get a job right out of college and might have to re-locate to get one. Being an EMT here, I can go out and get a job a half hr away from where I live, take the medic class and probably have it paid for by my employer or my volunteer service and then I'll be like...24 or 25...still young enough to go off to college and get a degree doing something else.....Point is, there are a lot more opportunities as an EMT.
 
Again......our compensation is not based on how "hard" our job is. If it were, one of the highest paid occupations would be the landscapers who work outside in the south in the summer.

Rather, we are paid based on the value of our labor.

If McDonald's pays their workers more than an ambulance service pays it's EMT's, it simply means that their workers are more productive and valuable, in the economic sense.
 
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