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I think there is a lot to be said for this effect, and I agree completely. Obviously though if you're openly carrying a gun, you better be ready to use it.
EMS Carrying Firearms
- Thread starter MedicPatriot
- Start date
I think there is a lot to be said for this effect, and I agree completely. Obviously though if you're openly carrying a gun, you better be ready to use it.
firetender
Community Leader Emeritus
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What a surprise!
This thread is circling the drain. Unless someone does something of redeeming value soon, it's bye-bye.
This thread is circling the drain. Unless someone does something of redeeming value soon, it's bye-bye.
I thought I did rather well with it.
firetender
Community Leader Emeritus
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Bullets
Forum Knucklehead
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while i am in favor of armed citizens, my views on open-carry are not as accepting. I think it invites trouble because people freak out when they see a non-cop OMG GUNZZ!!!!
If a EMS project like Jersey City Medical Center EMS "strongly recommends" their providers to purchase a ballistic vest, basically admitting "you WILL be treating in a hot zone in JC, and you WILL be shot at, and you WONT get PD on every call" i dont see why they cant offer a LEO-quality firearms certification class. If your going to tell your employees that we expect you to operate in warm and hot zones or on scenes that can rapidly become unsecured even with a PD presence, then i dont see why an adequatly trained and qualified EMT or Medic cant carry a firearm IF THEY SO CHOOSE.
Arming a medic DOES NOT EQUAL a medic blasting everything that moves. With the proper training and education EMS can be like senior LEOs who go their entire careers without firing their sidearm outside of training and qualification. There was a time when i believe Elizabeth staffed their EMS units with LEO/EMTs
While i would love to have every scene be safe and stay safe, anyone who has worked a day in an urban environment knows that scene safety is a myth. Scenes may be safe at times but can evolve. This is why i advocate everyone take a Street Survival class either at a conference or through their local City PD. It teaches one how to continually assess a scene, observe peoples movements, identify persons who may be carrying a firearm, ect. It makes a provider more situationally aware
Also, CPR in a ballistic vest (IIIA) is not difficult, just hot, speaking from experiance
I guess I should add something smart then...
How about a look on home range resources?
A home range resource is genrally defined and accepted as a small area of resources, the minimum necessary for the survival and reproduction of a primate of which they will aggresively defend until death.
People are primates.
When fearful of extrinsic violence to the point of needing a weapon for defense, without rehashing the pathological fear topic, let us examine the treat of violence on home range.
While I will concede that there are occasionally humans who prey on other humans, the event is rather rare.
Defense of shelter.
While people often equate their home not only as shelter, but as a safe haven, there is considerable psychological stress placed on a person when it is invaded.
Usually for the purpose of stealing material possession. The same with robbery or a nonviolent theft of a person.
The aggresor does not usually intend to incite a conflict, as with any predator killing/driving off potentil future prey is counter productive. Worse still is being wounded when attacking.
The threat of violent response, particularly from somebody who does not appear a threat, (aka concealed carry) can only possibly result in an instant escalation of attack. (shoot first) or drive the aggresor to a more helpless target.
however, when extrapolated to EMS, aside from general resource plundering for gain, a more complex situation develops.
Why would somebody use violence against an EMS provider?
The easy answer is to steal drugs or money. But that contradicts my own observations of EMS assaults.
More assaults I am familiar with again EMS persons are from altered patients.
Second to that patients or bystanders who feel they have been wronged/neglected.
Finally as an aggression against an authority figure.
In the circumstances that lead up to this emotional attack, an EMS provider is likely to be at rest and unaware or actively providing patient care. (with limited control or awareness of the surroundings.
As is commonly accepted by experts, it is not the initial scene that presents danger, it is the changing scene.
(this is where the Wyatt Earps of the firearm community usually state they are hyperaware of all situations and equally ready to react by outdrawing any attacker.) I can only logically conclude this overconfidence of ability is perpetuated by the "safety blanket" of being armed themselves. The knowledge of the ability to kill an attacker imparting a sense of superiority. (with one or 2 awards or certs tossed in to icing the cake)
But most people who engage in gunfights that I have had the opportunity to discuss this with usually point out that taking cover is the first step if you want to be successful or survive the encounter.
This argument negates the "quick draw" superiority.
The only other alternative is to enter a scene with suspicion and intention to "neutralize it." Which is where I think the most critical judgement error befalling an armed EMS provider can occur. The perception of a threat that does not exist. AKA delusion. (perhaps paranoia)
The defense of others.
Now I don't usually find myself in a position where I happen upon an attack or threat in progress. (or notice if I do) But were an EMS provider to say, find himself witnessing a domestic dispute, which party would present the greatest threat to be eliminated between 3rd parties?
A terribly wrong decsion could be made here.
The chance of witnessing an obvious crime in progress requiring the defense of life or limb is so remote, that it might be more prudent to wear a helmet, neckbrace, and knee pads to mitgate being hit by a car. (as a pedestrian or other vehicle operator)
Back to home range resources.
Is there the possibility that an attacker is trying to usurp reproductive rights and capability from an EMS provider?
Perhaps, but I am guessing that is extremely rare, and probably no more likely than any particular civillian.
But if you felt so insecure about that, why would you even go into such an area? If you worry it is while providing care post contact, then it falls under the same auspice of repelling an attacker as above.
The removal of minimal resources to survive.
I won't spend long on this because in any first world nation, the minimum survival resources are hardly an issue, and especially not for EMS providers. I just cannot see an attacker coming to push an EMS provider off his/her property, or removing enough wealth to make survival impossible.
The defenders of society and the true faith.
What really is on an ambulance you would risk your life over? A gas card? Some medical equipment? Drugs?
Is it just the idea that somebody would "dare steal from or threaten you" that incites this need of being armed? I think in LE circles that is called contempt of cop. Are we now dealing with contempt of EMT?
This whole post points back in the direction that it is likely unfounded (delusional/paranoia) fear that is driving the need to feel secure by having a weapon.
There is no reasonable threat against home range resources.
The logical threats cannot be effectively responded to with force.
The "what if" scenarios are so remote that nothing short of phobia explains it.
When suffering from delusions, phobia, or other psychosis like paranoia, it is generally accepted in not only Western society, but in the US as well, those people are unfit to carry or own a weapon. Even if they have not snapped yet, it could be triggered by any event and their hyperawareness/hyperresponsiveness.
Of course I expect the obligatory reply of "Not every who owns a gun is psycho."
So let me just get this out of the way now.
Not all psychatric abnormailties negatively interfere with life function under normal circumstances, but are brought out during times of acute uncompensatable stress or chronic unresolved stress. Both are risk factors in EMS.
A person suffering from a psych disorder can snap at any moment. If you have an already present delusion, what is to say you will not suffer from another inappropriate perceptipon when placed under stress? Like a kid pulling out a camera before you blast him down?
Nothing that is consciously controlable.
But finally, have you ever met a crazy person who believed they had a problem and not everyone else?
"People just don't understand me." is a favorite patient phrase of mine.
I'll buy that argument when EMS providers undergo the same prehiring selection process as police officers.
enjoynz
Lady Enjoynz
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Ok...well as Firetender put it...my first post was circling the drain...(2nd one was not helped, by a certain member)...I'm going to put down what I honestly feel, about arming EMS workers.
It's the sillest thing I've ever heard (No offence to the 1st poster).
The whole point of an EMS worker is to preserve life, not take it away..Leave that job, to the cops.
It doesn't matter what country you work in, ambulance officers (EMS workers) are always going to be in the firing line (so to speak).
Hence the 'Safety first' part of your training, that is drummed into your brain from the start.
Because you are working with people that are in pain...The 'fight or flight' is going to either make things ease or hard for you.
And as Veneficus said....if you are carrying drugs, there is always the danger of becoming a target. It the nature of the beast we are dealing with, in the modern world!
Pointing a gun at them is only going to make the job more dangerous.
What are you going to do if you are working on a patient and his friend thinks you are not doing a good enough job of it and pulls YOUR gun on YOU, while you have your hands full???
It's the sillest thing I've ever heard (No offence to the 1st poster).
The whole point of an EMS worker is to preserve life, not take it away..Leave that job, to the cops.
It doesn't matter what country you work in, ambulance officers (EMS workers) are always going to be in the firing line (so to speak).
Hence the 'Safety first' part of your training, that is drummed into your brain from the start.
Because you are working with people that are in pain...The 'fight or flight' is going to either make things ease or hard for you.
And as Veneficus said....if you are carrying drugs, there is always the danger of becoming a target. It the nature of the beast we are dealing with, in the modern world!
Pointing a gun at them is only going to make the job more dangerous.
What are you going to do if you are working on a patient and his friend thinks you are not doing a good enough job of it and pulls YOUR gun on YOU, while you have your hands full???
medic417
The Truth Provider
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Most of us are not saying to arm all EMS personnel.
No scene is truly safe so having all tools available is a good ideal and in many areas waiting on law enforcement is not an option.
The gun would only be pulled as a last resort honestly after trying to run/take cover. Those of us that carry do not yank it out and shoot everyone that looks sideways at us like the old western movies portray. So only time it would be pulled is if it is the last option besides death. W/o a firearm once that point is reached the only option is death.
Again the gun is concealed. The patients friends are not going to see it thus they are not going to be able to pull it.
I personally do not want everyone in EMS to carry. Heck many in EMS scare me that they are even allowed to be in EMS with all the equipment that can harm people. But for those that are properly educated it should not be an issue. And again no one would even know a gun was there because it is concealed.
Ok I've beat the horse beyond death and it's not like anyone is gonna change their opinions for or against.
:deadhorse:
DrParasite
The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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probably not, because it's very very hard to definitively say if someone would have survived had they had a firearm. plus, if a having a firearm deters the assailant, and prevents the case from occurring, than it wouldn't be a documentable case
All of Israel's EMS personnel carry firearms. I have read articles where they shot someone and once the threat was mitigated, they began treating the person. I think it was in JEMS magazine.
medic417
The Truth Provider
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You know anything stated would be anecdotal because there is no real record of EMS attacks, accidents, etc. I am aware of firearms carried in EMS and used by EMS to protect the crew but can I back it up? No so no point in posting. The few things heard about come when it makes the news. So even if a news report is posted how accurate is it?
Any that died it would only be opinion one way or the other whether a gun might have been a useful tool and kept them alive.
Really you have posted a question that is impossible to answer. I could rephrase your questions to support my argument and you also would be unable to provide anything conclusive.
Time to give up beating your dead horse.
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While we can debate whether or not a firearm would have made a difference in these cases because each situation is different, here are some where it's possible it may have.
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1559 non-fatal for EMS
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11109 fatal (and possibly the exact scenario you were asking for)
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=22425 non-fatal for EMS
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=24010 non-injury
As to the second part of your question, I haven't heard of any that I can provide documentation for.
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Briefly looking over those articles I am of the opinion the weapon would have to have been open carried in order to offer any help as a deterent.
Many of the arguments I have seen here are for concealed carry.
If some agency wants to lobby to legislate laws for EMS responders to carry and wield weapons. Train and regularly recertify said providers, and screen applicants as thoroughly as law enforcement agencies do, I could support EMS providers being armed.
I cannot support an EMS provider carrying a weapon, especially concealed, acting in an official capacity, and having absolutely ineffective if any oversight at all.
Not only for the protection of the public, but for thier own.
I would settle for a news article.
If there is absolutely no documentation, even if inaccurate, then the chances of it must be so low that the "what if scenario" truly is psychotic paranoia.
medic417
The Truth Provider
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Being prepared for a real possibility is not paranoia. Every day people are attacked and thankfully occasionally the attempt is against a person with the tools to defend so they survive . Your blanket statement serves you not well young Jedi wannabe.
As previously stated there are many things in medicine that are never done but by very few yet many still learn and equip themselves. By your reasoning guess they are just paranoid.
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fortsmithman
Forum Deputy Chief
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The only time I could see a fiream being used in EMS in my area is for a wilderness call where we have a crew of 3 with 2 treating the pt and the third standing watch for bears. The firearm would be a rifle.
You must really think people are fools.
To equate a barely used medical procedure "just in case" to a almost nonexistant threat against your person which can only be assuaged by carrying around a weapon for?
I seriously need to find and repost the instructions for making a tinfoil hat.
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I wouldn't recommend that.