EMS Carrying Firearms

[Hunter]

While we can debate whether or not a firearm would have made a difference in these cases because each situation is different, here are some where it's possible it may have.

http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=1559 non-fatal for EMS
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=11109 fatal (and possibly the exact scenario you were asking for)
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=22425 non-fatal for EMS
http://emtlife.com/showthread.php?t=24010 non-injury

As to the second part of your question, I haven't heard of any that I can provide documentation for.

You know i think number 2 is probably an example of something where if they were carrying they may have been able to defend themselves...

 

[WhiskeySix5]

This seems to have turned into the classic argument. My personal stance is that I believe in the "right to carry", and I do carry off duty. However, I do not feel that my right to carry should extend to my function in an "Official" capacity with an EMS agency. I think this blurs the line between LEO and EMS operations. Furthermore, to be quite frank.... based on many of the EMT and Paramedics I have seen, I would be downright frightened to have one of them carry a gun, as I believe carrying can give someone a false sense of empowerment. The truth is, even in the police academy we were taught to attempt to de-escalate a situation, rather than start blasting away.

Mine is not a "CONSTITUTIONAL" argument, but rather an argument that states it just does not make sense. What happens to the patient we "were" treating, before you decided to shoot the gangbanger outside the door because you felt you were in danger? Now we have folks throwing rocks, shooting at the ambulance, and dragging us out of the box because they are pissed off. Yep, you shot 3 of them before they got the gun out of your hands, and beat you to death, and me 1/2 to death. City hall now has a 5 day protest in front of it, because an EMT shot a civilian while on a call, because he was a drug dealer, and you said you were going to get him off the street, but in actuallity what you said was lets get the PT off the street and into the box. There are no charges filed against the guy who shot us because the city really wants to make this go away as quietly as possible. Me? I can't work now due to my injuries, but we are not getting any benefits from the city because you acted under your "individual" right, not under an official capacity. A review board found that I was guilty of not doing enough to stop you, and worse yet, guilty of gross negligence and abandonment for not treating and protecting the patient we were originally called for, so the State permanently revoked my patch as well.

Granted, that situation is probably a bit of a stretch...but by how much? How easy could it be to wind up in that situation? Oh, I hear you already jumping up and down screaming.... Better fired from work then dead right? Except, you wound up dead anyway?

I figure, if the EMS (MDA) in Israel can manage to treat and transport unarmed, I think we can manage to do it over here. If we get to a point where we are openly attacked by hostile forces, then have no fear partner...I will be riding shotgun with my AK and a pistol on my side... until then, I will leave the guns out of healthcare.

 

[Veneficus]

This seems to have turned into the classic argument. My personal stance is that I believe in the "right to carry", and I do carry off duty. However, I do not feel that my right to carry should extend to my function in an "Official" capacity with an EMS agency. I think this blurs the line between LEO and EMS operations. Furthermore, to be quite frank.... based on many of the EMT and Paramedics I have seen, I would be downright frightened to have one of them carry a gun, as I believe carrying can give someone a false sense of empowerment. The truth is, even in the police academy we were taught to attempt to de-escalate a situation, rather than start blasting away.

Mine is not a "CONSTITUTIONAL" argument, but rather an argument that states it just does not make sense. What happens to the patient we "were" treating, before you decided to shoot the gangbanger outside the door because you felt you were in danger? Now we have folks throwing rocks, shooting at the ambulance, and dragging us out of the box because they are pissed off. Yep, you shot 3 of them before they got the gun out of your hands, and beat you to death, and me 1/2 to death. City hall now has a 5 day protest in front of it, because an EMT shot a civilian while on a call, because he was a drug dealer, and you said you were going to get him off the street, but in actuallity what you said was lets get the PT off the street and into the box. There are no charges filed against the guy who shot us because the city really wants to make this go away as quietly as possible. Me? I can't work now due to my injuries, but we are not getting any benefits from the city because you acted under your "individual" right, not under an official capacity. A review board found that I was guilty of not doing enough to stop you, and worse yet, guilty of gross negligence and abandonment for not treating and protecting the patient we were originally called for, so the State permanently revoked my patch as well.

Granted, that situation is probably a bit of a stretch...but by how much? How easy could it be to wind up in that situation? Oh, I hear you already jumping up and down screaming.... Better fired from work then dead right? Except, you wound up dead anyway?

I figure, if the EMS (MDA) in Israel can manage to treat and transport unarmed, I think we can manage to do it over here. If we get to a point where we are openly attacked by hostile forces, then have no fear partner...I will be riding shotgun with my AK and a pistol on my side... until then, I will leave the guns out of healthcare.

You forgot the word "alleged" untill there is a conviction

BUt otherwise I agree with this post 100% It is not a stretch at all. But I would also add that even if they don't beat you down right away at the scene, they can take their anger out on an entirely different crew at a time and place of their choosing.

 

[Bullets]

Now we have folks throwing rocks, shooting at the ambulance, and dragging us out of the box because they are pissed off.

what if people already do this to EMS on a semi-regular basis?

 

[Veneficus]

what if people already do this to EMS on a semi-regular basis?

Find another place to work.

I have been locked in a box from an angry mob who I have no doubt would have dragged us out because they felt us white EMS people were not doing enough to help their relative who was in arrest with an unknown downtime because the patient was not white.

I am very glad nobody on the truck was stupid enough to start firing out, because then we would have been locked in a box with people shooting in.

At the same agency we also had medics assaulted from false 911 calls because they always called the cops when responding to a particular place and somebody got busted and felt if the EMS crews didn't always call the cops first the situation could have been avoided.

the only person who I knew who carried at that agency did so out of fear of his homophobic coworkers, not threats outside the agency.

 

[WhiskeySix5]

what if people already do this to EMS on a semi-regular basis?

Yep, been in that environment in a sandy local overseas. We were hit with bottles, rocks, and anything else not too heavy to throw. I did not shoot them either...until they shot at me, or tried to blow me up... then it was time to shoot

 

[DrParasite]

I figure, if the EMS (MDA) in Israel can manage to treat and transport unarmed, I think we can manage to do it over here.

which would be a great argument, except for the fact that I read in JEMS that MDA do their job while armed.

 

[DrParasite]

Yep, been in that environment in a sandy local overseas. We were hit with bottles, rocks, and anything else not too heavy to throw. I did not shoot them either...until they shot at me, or tried to blow me up... then it was time to shoot

good call. shooting someone isn't your first reaction to a bad scene. but when you are trapped in a scene and you can't leave, don't you wish you had more to do than scream for help on the radio and thrown a 4x4 at the person?

Famous last words: I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

 

[ricardo007]

We are not Cops!

 

[ffemt8978]

We are not Cops!

That has nothing to do with the argument at hand. On a side note, there are places where EMS is also law enforcement. I believe the call it a PSO (Public Safety Officer).

 

[WhiskeySix5]

which would be a great argument, except for the fact that I read in JEMS that MDA do their job while armed.

Wow, my nephew did 12 months with them, never saw an armed EMT, nor did he see them use weapons, although they are an extension of the IDF? In fact, 65% of the medics on the box there were volunteers from another country.

Please send me that link in JEMS, I would like to read more about it...

 

[WhiskeySix5]

good call. shooting someone isn't your first reaction to a bad scene. but when you are trapped in a scene and you can't leave, don't you wish you had more to do than scream for help on the radio and thrown a 4x4 at the person?

Famous last words: I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6

I understand the last words, I guess I am struggling to understand how so many medics on this site are working in Beirut and Syria where they routinely are trapped, under fire, and need to shoot their way out of a situation?

I mean, I have only been doing this off and on since 1987 so I am relatively new to the field...in my short tenure, I have yet to see the scenario above, and I have worked in some pretty gnarly areas, including 3rd world countries and war zones.

Just sayin...

 

[DrParasite]

Wow, my nephew did 12 months with them, never saw an armed EMT, nor did he see them use weapons, although they are an extension of the IDF? In fact, 65% of the medics on the box there were volunteers from another country.

Please send me that link in JEMS, I would like to read more about it...

it was an old article (several years), I am trying to find it. for you.

 

[DPM]

Out of curiosity, how many people on this thread have had to use a firearm in anger / been on the receiving end? I'd be interested to see who / how many from the pro-armed team have been in that situation.

When is was in Northern Ireland shootings / executions / bombings were still a very real problem and I was issued a personal protection weapon as I lived off Camp. I didn't meet one Fire Fighter or EMT (and I met a few) who felt that they wanted to be armed.

My point is, even in a situation where the locals were at one time armed by Ghadafi, Fire and EMS were confident in the PSNI (the cops) to protect them on a call. Is this more an argument that EMS providers want to be armed because they feel vulnerable due to a lack of PD support?

 

[Veneficus]

Out of curiosity, how many people on this thread have had to use a firearm in anger / been on the receiving end? I'd be interested to see who / how many from the pro-armed team have been in that situation.

When is was in Northern Ireland shootings / executions / bombings were still a very real problem and I was issued a personal protection weapon as I lived off Camp. I didn't meet one Fire Fighter or EMT (and I met a few) who felt that they wanted to be armed.

My point is, even in a situation where the locals were at one time armed by Ghadafi, Fire and EMS were confident in the PSNI (the cops) to protect them on a call. Is this more an argument that EMS providers want to be armed because they feel vulnerable due to a lack of PD support?

I think it really has nothing to do with cops.

People in the US are afraid of the Bogeyman.

at any moment...

it could be you...

 

[Akulahawk]

I think it really has nothing to do with cops.

People in the US are afraid of the Bogeyman.

at any moment...

it could be you...

While being armed is nothing to do with cops, in a very real sense, they do not show up to "save the day" except in some very unusual circumstances. A lot of times what they end up doing is taken report and file it, later the detective might follow up and do some additional investigation and perhaps the person responsible is arrested and brought into the justice system. Law enforcement in the United States is under no obligation to protect any one particular person, just society as a whole.

While I am not afraid of the Bogeyman, I know several people that have been actively targeted by persons who clearly do not have peaceful intentions in mind. These same several people live in my county. In particular, these folks were very obviously targets for robbery. How do I know? If you look at the behavior of the attacker, and their accomplices, it becomes very obvious that they weren't approaching another person for the purpose of saying hello, rather they were approaching from a very tactical standpoint, choosing their approach to their victim in such a way that their victim could be somewhat easily overpowered. Now these particular episodes did not make the news simply because of one of two things. One, the would-be victim was aware of the setup and was able to leave and in that instance was actively followed for short distance, before it became obvious that the would-be victim was heading to a place where more assistance was readily available. In a second instance, with a separate individual, three people approached him in an attempt to block him from escaping. The gentleman in question was going to be the victim position themselves in such a way that he had his back protected and could visualize the other three persons that were attempting to bracket him. In that instance, a few rather strong commands to back away and, very obviously getting ready to draw firearm and use it caused those three persons to rethink their plan. They beat a rather hasty retreat and left. Had it been a slow news night, and somebody had the video available of that event, that might have made the news. Because nobody got shot, the news was uninterested.

Now in case you are perhaps thinking that these folks were actively seeking out crime or were involved in a criminal element themselves, you would be sorely mistaken. Other than these incidents, neither these individuals have ever been involved in a criminal act by criminal elements, and the closest they ever got anything like that was seeing it on TV. Simply because there are 300 million of us in the country and there are perhaps a few thousand orders per year that are not guided by a criminal element upon criminal element. There are a lot more crimes involving use of force such as robbery and assault with a deadly weapon crimes the door are of people actually being killed as a result of crime. Most of the time, events like this do not result in anything other than the would-be victim turning the tables on their attacker and the attacker runs. And of course no one get shot because the incident didn't rise to that level where deadly force needed to be imminently used. Thankfully, the amount of violent crime in this country has decreased over the past couple of decades but it is still a concern and still prevalent enough to be a concern. Put another way, most of us will never be a victim of violent crime, most of us will never have to perform CPR or have a fire in our house that is in a place where it's not normally expected, like the fireplace or the kitchen stove. Yet we tell the general public that they should be CPR trained and that they should have a fire extinguisher in the house because of the what if that happens problem.

Simply because I am armed doesn't mean that I go out to places where I think problems might happen rather I go to those places where I normally do anyway, unarmed. My behavior, other than a heightened awareness, does not change.

I am generally not a big fan of these threads, simply because people are entrenched from both sides of the pro-gun/anti-gun argument begin to each attempt to convert the other to their side. I do not profess to know what is best for everyone, I however know what is best for me in my situation because I am in it. Because I do not profess to know what is best for everyone, the furthest I will go is to simply suggest that everyone look at their own situation, do their own research, and determine for themselves what is best.

 

[Sandog]

I just wonder, how many on this thread are full of foo foo?

 

[Akulahawk]

I just wonder, how many on this thread are full of foo foo?

Probably far too many. I get my information from a subject matter expert in the use of force. This particular guy that I get my information from is no keyboard commando, he has very good credentials and is a sole-source presenter for California POST. He is very aware of the use of force issues that occur in the general public and within the law enforcement community.

In general I do not think that EMS workers should be required to be armed because we should be seen by the public as being a neutral party. That means of course that ideally, EMS will not be seen as a threat, and therefore not come under attack simply because they happen to "be there".

Choosing to be armed, outside of the law enforcement community, or the military, is an intensely personal decision. When I choose to be armed in a given situation, I have weighed the consequences of being armed. Currently I do not carry on campus when I am at school because, while it is legal for me to do so, I would end up being expelled from the program I am in and that is an outcome that I do not desire. The campus itself is generally very safe, because there are law enforcement assets on campus with a very very short response time. This is, of course not the case off-campus.

 

[DPM]

I'm sure I'm seeing this from my point of view because I'm a European, but I'm having a hard time imagining a situation where I would actually need to have a firearm. If on a call 'Jo Crack-head' wants to try and shoot me, there's not a lot I can do about it. As a former Soldier I don't want to hang around and get into a gun fight on his terms, I'll take my chances and give him a moving target while I GTFO of there.

The Police in the US are armed and that doesn't seem to stop them getting shot at, why would EMS be any different?

 

[DrParasite]

Out of curiosity, how many people on this thread have had to use a firearm in anger / been on the receiving end? I'd be interested to see who / how many from the pro-armed team have been in that situation.

another question would be how many have ever had a firearm aimed at you while on work?

In general I do not think that EMS workers should be required to be armed because we should be seen by the public as being a neutral party. That means of course that ideally, EMS will not be seen as a threat, and therefore not come under attack simply because they happen to "be there".

Ideally yes, but we all know we don't live in an ideal world.