EMS Carrying Firearms

While I have a concealed carry permit, am former military and LEO, and have been in this field for years... I cannot ever recall a scenario in this field where I truly felt I needed to be armed to ensure my safety and well being, or for that matter, the patients well being. On the battlefield? Yes, I had to shoot. In the real world? Never. I have been in some scary scenarios, but then common sense prevails. If in doubt, we simply stage till LEO's get on scene. Thats what they are paid to do. I am here to provide medical assistance, not enforce the laws of the county, state, et. al.

Can you imagine responding to an inner city area armed? Some of the EMT's I see can barely lift a jump bag or stretcher, so how are they going to fend off someone trying to steal their gun :rofl:
 
WhiskeySix5 said:
While I have a concealed carry permit, am former military and LEO, and have been in this field for years... I cannot ever recall a scenario in this field where I truly felt I needed to be armed to ensure my safety and well being, or for that matter, the patients well being. On the battlefield? Yes, I had to shoot. In the real world? Never. I have been in some scary scenarios, but then common sense prevails. If in doubt, we simply stage till LEO's get on scene. Thats what they are paid to do. I am here to provide medical assistance, not enforce the laws of the county, state, et. al.

Can you imagine responding to an inner city area armed? Some of the EMT's I see can barely lift a jump bag or stretcher, so how are they going to fend off someone trying to steal their gun :rofl:
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Thank you. It is really good to see somebody has figured this out.

For those with the insatiable urge to need to carry a firearm while providing medical care, may I humbly suggest an employer who will support it?

1-888-550-ARMY

1-800-USA-NAVY

I am willing to bet they have openings and will take an inexperienced EMT under 21.
 
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WhiskeySix5 said:
Can you imagine responding to an inner city area armed? Some of the EMT's I see can barely lift a jump bag or stretcher, so how are they going to fend off someone trying to steal their gun :rofl:
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hmmm I pull up to an inner city sick person call, for an 50-60 year old lady with diff breathing on a dead end street. what I don't know is both of her sons are home a well, and (I learned later) both are known members of the Bloods street gang, and both are believed to be heavily armed inside, and both have pistols on them.

now both the sons care about mom very much, and are already unhappy that it took us forever to get to their house (those 6 minutes felt like forever), and once we put the lady on the cot and put her in the ambulance to assess her, Jr ends up banging on the back door to take her to the hospital since we aren't moving quick enough for his tastes.

In this case (which happened to me about 4 years ago), if I had a gun, I am not worried about fending off someone trying to steal my gun, I'm worried about Jr and his brother drawing their guns on me, because they don't like what i'm doing, or thinking I am not moving fast enough. Luckily, the ESU cops were on their lunch break, heard the address, recognized the address, and left their hot food on the plate and pulled up 2 minutes behind us. And he told me in case something bad happened, he was very much outgunned.

I still don't think EMTs should have guns, but using the inner city argument, when you can walk into the projects and everyone has a firearm EXCEPT you, and everyone knows this, well, it makes you an obvious soft target.
 
No disrespect, but "soft target" is what we are. Next argument is who has the greater caliber weapon.
If we stand out until it is safe, then those truly needing care for a loved one stop that BS. If Bob is interfering with the paramedics, then his brother Jim who does love his mom will sit Bob down.
 
Inner city customer dissatisfaction is the only time I have ever felt like I was in imminent danger. The fact is, though, the best way to work myself out of that is to quickly get the patient to the truck and off the scene. Having a gun would not help.
 
DrParasite said:
In this case (which happened to me about 4 years ago), if I had a gun, I am not worried about fending off someone trying to steal my gun, I'm worried about Jr and his brother drawing their guns on me, because they don't like what i'm doing, or thinking I am not moving fast enough. Luckily, the ESU cops were on their lunch break, heard the address, recognized the address, and left their hot food on the plate and pulled up 2 minutes behind us. And he told me in case something bad happened, he was very much outgunned.
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Were your a third-party service or party of the county/city system?

The reason I ask is, I know when PD dispatches, some addresses are flagged for "officer safety". Does this appear for Fire/EMS dispatches as well? If there was a warning for this address in the system, would Fire/EMS be alerted?
 
Chimpie said:
Were your a third-party service or party of the county/city system?
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hospital based 3rd party service, with direct communication to local police via portable radio
Chimpie said:
The reason I ask is, I know when PD dispatches, some addresses are flagged for "officer safety". Does this appear for Fire/EMS dispatches as well? If there was a warning for this address in the system, would Fire/EMS be alerted?
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possibly, I am not sure if resident's gang affiliation is listed in the CAD warnings. Not only that, but all to often PD gets notified about this history on their MDT, but the information isn't passed along to EMS.
 
DrParasite said:
possibly, I am not sure if resident's gang affiliation is listed in the CAD warnings. Not only that, but all to often PD gets notified about this history on their MDT, but the information isn't passed along to EMS.
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Unfortunate.
 
I am not a fan of EMS carrying guns. In 16yrs active in EMS I have never encountered a situation where I even remotely thought to myself that I wish I was armed.

A concealed weapons permit does not suffice to carry and use while in an official capacity in my opinion. Shouldn't you be expected to qualify with the gun your going to be carrying? Understand the laws and use of deadly force? Know how to react if someone does grab for your gun? It's a pretty big deal for EMS to carry a gun. Anyone who thinks it isn't should definitely not be carrying.

Bad idea.
 
still I am not talking about arming EMS or using guns in an official way. I only speak of not making people who carry guns every day take them off just to ride the medic. This isn't about giving EMS guns, its allowing the people who usually excersize their 2nd amendment right to not be forced to disarm. We dont need EMS ever being armed in an official sense, but I think everyone has that right to protection and make a sound judgment call as well.

I could legally carry on a unit in another state, and I probably would too. It isnt because Im a gunslinger, but when Im at my other residence its common for me to carry everywhere. I wouldnt change that for being on an ambulance.
 
DrParasite said:
hmmm I pull up to an inner city sick person call, for an 50-60 year old lady with diff breathing on a dead end street. what I don't know is both of her sons are home a well, and (I learned later) both are known members of the Bloods street gang, and both are believed to be heavily armed inside, and both have pistols on them.

now both the sons care about mom very much, and are already unhappy that it took us forever to get to their house (those 6 minutes felt like forever), and once we put the lady on the cot and put her in the ambulance to assess her, Jr ends up banging on the back door to take her to the hospital since we aren't moving quick enough for his tastes.
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Ive been in this exact situation a few times, most likely in a city not far from your own, Doc. It was not a nice feeling having a light belt that day

Chimpie said:
Were your a third-party service or party of the county/city system?

The reason I ask is, I know when PD dispatches, some addresses are flagged for "officer safety". Does this appear for Fire/EMS dispatches as well? If there was a warning for this address in the system, would Fire/EMS be alerted?
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When PD calls EMS, that info usually isnt relayed. And even if it was, a Sick person, or even a respiratory dosnt get a radio car. the PD is strapped for manpower as it is, with the lay-offs and firings, retirements, so EMS calls are like last priority and only get a car if the unit assigned to that zone isnt already tied up or have calls in queue. And if they are free, its up to the patrolman if he wants to go
 
Bullets said:
Ive been in this exact situation a few times, most likely in a city not far from your own, Doc. It was not a nice feeling having a light belt that day



When PD calls EMS, that info usually isnt relayed. And even if it was, a Sick person, or even a respiratory dosnt get a radio car. the PD is strapped for manpower as it is, with the lay-offs and firings, retirements, so EMS calls are like last priority and only get a car if the unit assigned to that zone isnt already tied up or have calls in queue. And if they are free, its up to the patrolman if he wants to go
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WOW... sounds like you need a new Govenor / Police Chief / etc.... not a gun. :rolleyes:

Here, EMS are treated like a fellow LEO. If we are in a scary situation, they will be there very fast, and generally are already on scene to begin with. On top of that, add an Engine crew into that mix, so there are 6 of us on scene not including PD. If I am questionable about the local, we will advise dispatchers to send in PD before hand, and we will stage....

I have worked in NJ among other places.... I have been in some scary situations, but nothing I could not extricate myself from with simple communication.

What scenario could require a gun? If in doubt, and no PD on scene, I am going to scoop and run, and start treatment after we get moving. You can pick up a PT and put them on a stretcher really quickly when you need to. I am not giving anyone any time to get further disgruntled if they are acting agitated.
 
MedicPatriot said:
still I am not talking about arming EMS or using guns in an official way. I only speak of not making people who carry guns every day take them off just to ride the medic. This isn't about giving EMS guns, its allowing the people who usually excersize their 2nd amendment right to not be forced to disarm. We dont need EMS ever being armed in an official sense, but I think everyone has that right to protection and make a sound judgment call as well.

I could legally carry on a unit in another state, and I probably would too. It isnt because Im a gunslinger, but when Im at my other residence its common for me to carry everywhere. I wouldnt change that for being on an ambulance.
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And what state would that be? Would the hospitals allow you to carry on their grounds? How about at a city/county owned facility that your unit is based out of?

I should hope that no agency would be irresponsible enough to allow any of their employees to carry "unofficially." The agency would have no idea whether or not you are truly proficient in firearms use or are even tempered enough to be trusted to carry a firearm in the performance of your duty. I'm not sure if the agency could be actually be held legally liable for an employee misusing a firearm on duty, but it seems like a distinct possibility.

As others have stated, in many environments EMS is a "soft target" unlike the police who carry openly. I think that's a big point, if no one knows that you as an EMS provider is carrying a gun, aren't you still a soft target?
 
A policy would make the service responsible. If they say no firearms and you die in situation that family can prove you might have survived if you could have protected yourself the service looses lots of money in law suit. If they make policy that you can carry they become responsible for your actions, again loose big law suit. Sometimes best policy is no policy.
 
The hopeless argument

My collegues,

especially the ones who share my opinion.

This is a pointless argument. It is impossible to convince people who are so insecure and afraid that the preservation of the ability to respond with violence is the only safeguard they have against the scary world.

It is a base instinct, similar to a frightened or wounded animal. It cannot be overcome by rational, logical argument, or benevolent intention.

EMS providers are not immune to the extrinsic stressors of society.

I think the best approach is to suggest psychological/psychiatric counceling, particularly desenssitization therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy.

As a cheap alternative, perhaps just turning off the tv.

Let us hope in the meanwhile that the improper use of violence and the respective consequences remain lower than ambulance or airmed crashes.
 
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The hopeless argument

My colleagues,

Especially the educated ones who share my opinion.

This is a pointless argument. It is impossible to convince people who are so blind to any opinion besides their own.

Those that choose to ignorantly turn a blind eye cannot be overcome by rational, logical argument, or benevolent intention.

EMS providers are not immune to the extrinsic stressors of society.

I think the best approach is to suggest education, particularly education to overcome the prejudices based on their limited knowledge and experience on the subject matter.

There is no cheap alternative to proper education being used to make ones own decision rather than following the crowd in ignorance.

Let us hope in the meanwhile that the education in proper use of firearms as well as ambulance's and air-med equipment and use will lead to fewer injuries and deaths.
 
medic417 said:
My colleagues,

Especially the educated ones who share my opinion.

This is a pointless argument. It is impossible to convince people who are so blind to any opinion besides their own.

Those that choose to ignorantly turn a blind eye cannot be overcome by rational, logical argument, or benevolent intention.

EMS providers are not immune to the extrinsic stressors of society.

I think the best approach is to suggest education, particularly education to overcome the prejudices based on their limited knowledge and experience on the subject matter.

There is no cheap alternative to proper education being used to make ones own decision rather than following the crowd in ignorance.

Let us hope in the meanwhile that the education in proper use of firearms as well as ambulance's and air-med equipment and use will lead to fewer injuries and deaths.
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While I appreciate the imitation,

I have yet to hear a rational argument for armed EMS providers.

"The Bogey man could jump out and get me at any moment and I will have to protect myself," is simply not a convincing argument.

Whether "militias" or religious zealots, "those who do not believe as I do are coming to get me so I must excercise my right to self arm and protect my way of life," has generally not been embraced by western society.

It is not an argument about anti-gun, it is an argument about the usefulness of possessing a weapon to feel "safe."
 
I can't believe this is up for debate, let alone that other providers feel they should be carrying a weapon. Give your head a shake.
 
Veneficus said:
While I appreciate the imitation,

I have yet to hear a rational argument for armed EMS providers.

"The Bogey man could jump out and get me at any moment and I will have to protect myself," is simply not a convincing argument.

Whether "militias" or religious zealots, "those who do not believe as I do are coming to get me so I must excercise my right to self arm and protect my way of life," has generally not been embraced by western society.

It is not an argument about anti-gun, it is an argument about the usefulness of possessing a weapon to feel "safe."
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The funny thing is no one is saying arm all providers. It is the blind that keep throwing that argument out there. There are many that have proper education in firearm use. There are many like myself that always have a firearm and use it nearly daily. Thankfully on vicious animals rather than humans and I hope it always remains as such. It is not a matter of false security as you imply it is a matter of knowing where all tools are at all times and for many of us a firearm is such a tool. How do you feel when someone moves a vital piece of equipment that you need seldom but when you do you need it now but it's not where it is supposed to be?

There are very few that fit the picture you try and paint with the militias religious zealots statement and sadly really exposes ignorance rather than education.
 
WhiskeySix5 said:
WOW... sounds like you need a new Govenor / Police Chief / etc.... not a gun. :rolleyes:

Here, EMS are treated like a fellow LEO. If we are in a scary situation, they will be there very fast, and generally are already on scene to begin with. On top of that, add an Engine crew into that mix, so there are 6 of us on scene not including PD. If I am questionable about the local, we will advise dispatchers to send in PD before hand, and we will stage....

I have worked in NJ among other places.... I have been in some scary situations, but nothing I could not extricate myself from with simple communication.

What scenario could require a gun? If in doubt, and no PD on scene, I am going to scoop and run, and start treatment after we get moving. You can pick up a PT and put them on a stretcher really quickly when you need to. I am not giving anyone any time to get further disgruntled if they are acting agitated.
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if i need pd, i can request them and they are usually quick. they understand that if EMS is requesting, then fecal matter is striking the air circulating device.

but we operate independantly of PD, and its not just one city in NJ, many larger towns and cities operate this way. Newark, Jersey City, Camden, Paterson, Woodbridge, Edison, Perth Amboy, Atlantic City, PD just isnt an automatic dispatch, EMS needs to have its head on a swivel and always be situationally aware. I never really thought of it as a big deal. It wasnt until i came to EMTLife when i discovered that some systems send a radio car to EVERY call
 
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