EMS Carrying Firearms

[Akulahawk]

My collegues,

especially the ones who share my opinion.

This is a pointless argument. It is impossible to convince people who are so insecure and afraid that the preservation of the ability to respond with violence is the only safeguard they have against the scary world.

It is a base instinct, similar to a frightened or wounded animal. It cannot be overcome by rational, logical argument, or benevolent intention.

EMS providers are not immune to the extrinsic stressors of society.

I think the best approach is to suggest psychological/psychiatric counceling, particularly desenssitization therapy or cognitive behavioral therapy.

As a cheap alternative, perhaps just turning off the tv.

Let us hope in the meanwhile that the improper use of violence and the respective consequences remain lower than ambulance or airmed crashes.

While we disagree in our approaches to personal safety, I too hope that injuries to EMS providers and patients from "improper use of violence" remain lower than that of ambulance crashes.

 

[medic417]

Lets get back on the ambulance. Are there tools that are basically never used? Yes most definitely. Does it make us paranoid religious zealots for having those tools for that event that requires it yet will probably not happen in your ems career? No. We study the how's and whys. We practice the skills. Why? So we can accomplish what is needed if we hit the lottery ( figure of speech showing odds against ) and have that call.

The majority of people that carry firearms do not ever expect to need their firearm but they consider it a tool that they want to have the option to use if they ever hit the lottery ( same use as above paragraph). The majority of firearms owners do not sit around as portrayed by the antigun crowd stroking the gun and dreaming of the day they can save everyones life with it. In fact if your partner is carrying odds are you will never know it, theres a reason it is called concealed. It is a tool that by being educated in the how's and whys and being skilled in the use can be a lifesaver if ever needed.

 

[Veneficus]

education?

There are very few that fit the picture you try and paint with the militias religious zealots statement and sadly really exposes ignorance rather than education.

I will point out it takes only minutes, hours at the most to learn how to use a firearm.

But the argument of a weapon is not limited to that. Nor do I claim it to be as you keep trying to insert.

Why not a bowie knife? longsword? sling? atl atl? crossbow?

What about just carrying around a little blue blanket that makes one feel safe? Infact there are martial arts devoted to the use of chains, whips, and similar devices.

But as food for thought:

If you responded to a patient who demanded his right to carry his concealed weapon while being transported by you to the hospital "just in case," how would you respond to that?

Would his being a firearms expert change that?

What if a patient was a martial arts expert and announced he always carries whatever weapon he likes with him?

How about responding to a patient who states they always sleep with a gun "just in case?" (in a bad neighborhood)

What if the patient answers her door with multiple side arms and knives hanging off of her while holding a long arm?

Does their (let me be generous) education, training, and familiarity with their tools count as less because they are not in EMS, LE, or the fire service?

From the point of familiarity and training qualifying a person to carry a security blanket in order to feel safe and secure in the world, or even just in case, definately calls their capacity into question when they live in a 1st world nation.

No different than a citizen exercising thier right to walk around with a teddy bear to feel safe or a some lady carrying around a cast iron skillet as a tool in the event she has to fry something up or brain an attacker.

 

[medic417]

I will point out it takes only minutes, hours at the most to learn how to use a firearm.

But the argument of a weapon is not limited to that. Nor do I claim it to be as you keep trying to insert.

Why not a bowie knife? longsword? sling? atl atl? crossbow?

What about just carrying around a little blue blanket that makes one feel safe? Infact there are martial arts devoted to the use of chains, whips, and similar devices.

But as food for thought:

If you responded to a patient who demanded his right to carry his concealed weapon while being transported to you to the hospital "just in case," how would you respond to that?

Would his being a firearms expert change that?

What if a patient was a martial arts expert and announced he always carries whatever weapon he likes with him?

How about responding to a patient who states they always sleep with a gun "just in case?" (in a bad neighborhood)

What if the patient answers her door with multiple side arms and knives hanging off of her while holding a long arm?

Does their (let me be generous) education, training, and familiarity with their tools count as less because they are not in EMS, LE, or the fire service?

From the point of familiarity and training qualifying a person to carry a security blanket in order to feel safe and secure in the world, or even just in case, definately calls their capacity into question when they live in a 1st world nation.

No different than a citizen exercising thier right to walk around with a teddy bear to feel safe or a some lady carrying around a cast iron skillet as a tool in the event she has to fry something up or brain an attacker.

I have no problem with a person that can legally carry a firearm or knife or frying pan or blanket carrying it in the ambulance if it fits. I've transported many patients that were legally carrying. A brief explanation that at the hospital that it will have to be placed with security and all is good. Honestly I see no point in your argument.

As to the multiple guns knives meeting at the door, I will not even discuss that ridiculous stereotype of gun owners you have chosen to use. Surprised you didn't throw out the toothless grin with tobacco running down their chin, banjos strumming etc. Wow ignorance must be bliss.

 

[Veneficus]

Your agument is invalid

Surprised you didn't throw out the toothless grin with tobacco running down their chin, banjos strumming etc. Wow ignorance must be bliss.

Actually I was thinking more Lara Croft.

But I have yet to see a reproach of my argument about base insecurity in human behavior or biological programming countered with anything other than repeating that I am simply ignorant.

 

[18G]

still I am not talking about arming EMS or using guns in an official way. I only speak of not making people who carry guns every day take them off just to ride the medic. This isn't about giving EMS guns, its allowing the people who usually excersize their 2nd amendment right to not be forced to disarm. We dont need EMS ever being armed in an official sense, but I think everyone has that right to protection and make a sound judgment call as well.

I could legally carry on a unit in another state, and I probably would too. It isnt because Im a gunslinger, but when Im at my other residence its common for me to carry everywhere. I wouldnt change that for being on an ambulance.

What you do in your own time you are personally responsible for. What you do while your working becomes your employer's responsibility.

What would you do with your firearm if you get a call at a school where firearms are strictly prohibited on school grounds? Is there a locked compartment on your ambulance where your gun could be secured? Is it worth taking the time to have to screw with that hassle?

No matter which way you look at it, if your on the clock than your carrying in an official capacity and need to receive training to carry just like a police officer. Why should you have zero requirement to carry a gun while your working yet a police officer needs many hours of training and qualification with the gun they're carrying? I guess that does fit typical EMS thinking where we're always the exception and should be able to do more with less training and education.

The only Paramedics I know that are armed are those that fly with Maryland State Police who are both Medics and Police Officers.

 

[18G]

I have no problem with a person that can legally carry a firearm or knife or frying pan or blanket carrying it in the ambulance if it fits. I've transported many patients that were legally carrying. A brief explanation that at the hospital that it will have to be placed with security and all is good. Honestly I see no point in your argument.

As to the multiple guns knives meeting at the door, I will not even discuss that ridiculous stereotype of gun owners you have chosen to use. Surprised you didn't throw out the toothless grin with tobacco running down their chin, banjos strumming etc. Wow ignorance must be bliss.

Hmmm.... and you felt safe transporting a patient with a firearm? Are you crazy? PD would be summoned to take possession of the firearm before we go anywhere. Not to mention, no hospital around here would ever approve of a firearm being brought into their facility and I highly doubt most hospital security is okay with handling a firearm and being responsible for it.

 

[medic417]

Actually I was thinking more Lara Croft.

But I have yet to see a reproach of my argument about base insecurity in human behavior or biological programming countered with anything other than repeating that I am simply ignorant.

I stated the argument you just ignored it and made more pointless attacks.

Here let me give you another example so maybe you can even understand it despite all your obvious bias.

Surgical cric or current equivalent. How many Paramedics, heck how many doctors for that matter, have ever performed one anywhere besides training? Very few. Yet we all learn the hows, whys, skills related to it. Based on your argument we ( and I include the Doctors in that we ) should be laughed out of the here because we are insecure for ever wanting to have these tools available. Because obviously only someone that is insecure would want access to such equipment.

But I guess that isn't a legit argument because it comes from a toothless tobacco stained gun toter.

 

[Veneficus]

Hmmm.... and you felt safe transporting a patient with a firearm? Are you crazy? PD would be summoned to take possession of the firearm before we go anywhere. Not to mention, no hospital around here would ever approve of a firearm being brought into their facility and I highly doubt most hospital security is okay with handling a firearm and being responsible with it.

You don't feel safe transporting an armed patient who has extensive training in its use even though they may have a pathology such as ischemia, hemorrhage, or renal failure which may be or become mentaly impaired because of their condition?

Not sure why the military procedure is to disarm people who may have or deteriorate to an altered level on consciousness...

:rofl:

 

[medic417]

Hmmm.... and you felt safe transporting a patient with a firearm? Are you crazy? PD would be summoned to take possession of the firearm before we go anywhere. Not to mention, no hospital around here would ever approve of a firearm being brought into their facility and I highly doubt most hospital security is okay with handling a firearm and being responsible for it.

Why? They are not threatening me. They are legal to carry. I stated that it was explained they would have to turn over to security at the hospital. If security is so incompetent to not be able to secure the firearm they should not be security. But if they really are LE can meet ambulance at hospital and secure for them. Many hospitals actually have lock boxes that the patient can even place the firearm or other valuables in and reclaim it when released from the hospital.

It is not the gun that kills people it is the person with it. When you read the criminal stats of people that are licensed to carry you will find less criminal activity than you will from all the rest of mankind. So if they are legal odds are more in your favor that they intend you no harm than the patients that aren't licensed to carry whether they are carrying or not.

 

[medic417]

You don't feel safe transporting an armed patient who has extensive training in its use even though they may have a pathology such as ischemia, hemorrhage, or renal failure which may be or become mentaly impaired because of their condition?

Not sure why the military procedure is to disarm people who may have or deteriorate to an altered level on consciousness...

:rofl:

Did he describe a patient that may become altered? No. If there is any doubt the firearm is locked in cabinet and then turned over at hospital to security.

Why do you feel the need to complicate the uncomplicated?

 

[Veneficus]

Surgical cric or current equivalent. How many Paramedics, heck how many doctors for that matter, have ever performed one anywhere besides training? Very few. Yet we all learn the hows, whys, skills related to it. Based on your argument we ( and I include the Doctors in that we ) should be laughed out of the here because we are insecure for ever wanting to have these tools available. Because obviously only someone that is insecure would want access to such equipment.

I am truly entertained by this.

I will bet even fewer patients are served with an emergent thoracotomy.

But somehow I think there is a difference between the provision of a rarely used medical procedure and the personal need to feel safe by carrying a weapon.

I appreciate your self debasement, but I think I will stick with my idea of a girl in a bikini with a gun when I am at the range on saturday.

 

[Veneficus]

Why do you feel the need to complicate the uncomplicated?

perhaps habit from the life long experiences where if something can go wrong, it inevitably will.

 

[medic417]

perhaps habit from the life long experiences where if something can go wrong, it inevitably will.

Wow you just made a statement that would justify carrying of firearms.:blink:

 

[Veneficus]

perhaps habit from the life long experiences where if something can go wrong, it inevitably will.[/QUOTE:

Wow you just made a statement that would justify carrying of firearms.:blink:

Yea, the same statement could also be used to justify carrying a bazooka or a handgrenade too.

A person can justify any of their actions in their own mind.

 

[medic417]

Yea, the same statement could also be used to justify carrying a bazooka or a handgrenade too.

A person can justify any of their actions in their own mind.

And it is obvious you have justified in your mind that you know what is best for everyone else.

 

[Mountain Res-Q]

Does any one else prefer to use the tool between their ears and not the one in their hands?

Typed one-handed as I reload at the range.

 

[medic417]

Does any one else prefer to use the tool between their ears and not the one in their hands?

Typed one-handed as I reload at the range.

Tools allow you to implement what the brain says needs done. Work smarter not harder.

 

[nwhitney]

For the love of the One Eyed Flying Spaghetti Monster (or whatever deity you prefer) will someone please close this thread?!

 

[Veneficus]

And it is obvious you have justified in your mind that you know what is best for everyone else.

My insight into primate behavior permits me to look past the superficial and question peoples motives and identify patterns.

From such, I form an interpretation of root cause of behavior.

I think there is some accuracy in your statement though, as I think making a decision based on fear or anger is usually not beneficial.

But I am also not easily swayed by propaganda. There is no such thing as "shooting to defend," only shooting to kill.

I am not naive enough to think that killing somebody by firearm or any other means isn't occasionally the only logical or ethical action, but I am also just as certain that when you have fear and add a weapon, the chances of making a poor judgement call increase.

It is even more dangerous when a person actually believes they are serving a greater good.

A delusion is defined as an inappropriate response to a stimulous. It is a psychiatric disorder.

Fear is a natural response to stress. But my observation is that the factors that are the root cause of fear in modern societies are not a reasonable threat of extrinsic violence, which does happen occasionally, but the fear of the disruption of the known order of society.

This fear of the unknown is pathologically redirected as an amplified fear of being a victim, (delusion of persecution if not blatent psychosis) and the need to carry a weapon to feel secure is actually a compensatory mechanism.

In some cultures, they use talismans, rituals, exorcisms, etc.

The difference?

The mechanism of violence is applied against others.

The mechanism of superstition, religion, and redirection is applied against the unknown. (or at least that which is not understandable by man)

So perhaps trust in a lucky rabbit's foot, coin, or charm is a better option than a weapon.

At least your chances of being a victim are no different.

At best your chances of making a poor choice in a very emotional state will be significantly averted.

To turn this into an argument about a gun is really small minded. A gun is simply the weapon of the modern age. As I tried to express, no different than a sword or other weapon of antiquity. 1000 years from now it will also be considered as crude as earlier weapons are today.

But the motivations driving fear and violence will be as universal as they were 3000 years ago.