COVID VACCINE - The Megathread

[Summit]

1) An associate of mine, SWAT Officer, 40 y/o Male, life long Athlete/Runner, in excellent shape died of a Thrombotic Event withing 15 hrs of receiving the Covid Vaccine;

2) Some people, like myself have has serious reations to certain vaccines and are medically advised against the receiving Covid Vaccine;

3) Herd Immunity offers greated protection than the Covid Vaccine and is ignore due to the focus on Profitiblility;

4) If the vaccine was a real vaccine, meaning it made your body produce antibodies against the virus and prevent its spread the vaccine would be more accepted. But Post Vaccine Patients are still testing positive and repeatedly cycling through the virus.

This Covid virus is here to stay, along with the yearly Flu virus. Get used to it.

HK

I put the response in the appropriate thread. You opinion wasn't about EMS, but it is controversially ignorant.

1. Sorry about your friend. I don't wish to appear callous, but anecdotal reports are not causal.

2. Reactions to vaccines that require avoiding vaccines are typically hypersensitivity to ingredients. Ingredients vary between vaccines. The COVID vaccines actually have very few ingredients. If it is the spike protein that you are afraid of, then you should be way more afraid of what will happen when you get COVID (you will eventually).

3. You don't even understand the terms you are using. "Herd immunity" is one way of regarding reproduction numbers driven by the dynamics of the infectious agent vs reducing the vulnerable fraction of the population through vaccination and also infection-recovery. Name me a respiratory virus that reached herd immunity through natural infection alone. You can't because that never happens. This isn't some new COVID concept. Those of us in epidemiology have long understood this.

We also understand that while vaccines reduce transmission rates, critical to controlling the impact, with Delta it became apparent that the current vaccines won't achieve herd immunity because of the infection dynamics of Delta combined with vaccine hesitancy. However, the vaccines would control rates and reduce hospitalizations (and the overwhelming of the medical system) and deaths.

4. No vaccine is 100%. It is very rare for people to infected more than once, vaccinated or not. If you think the vaccines are fake and don't stimulate the body to produce antibodies and T/B cell memory, then you are programmed too well by your siloed misinformation sources and probably are beyond educating. Sorry if that seems rude, but the truth is harsh.

Get used to it? You come off as unintentionally callous because you don't work in the ICU and you don't work an EMS system that can't find an ED to accept their STEMI or stroke because everyone is on ED Divert. You haven't been a patient sent from their hospital of choice across the state, against their wishes, to some small rural hospital as part of a patient trade for capacity. Get used to that? We are not at steady state!

Nobody debates that this will be endemic, but endemic COVID will be different than flu (probably less bad than flu) just like it is different than flu now (much worse than flu). What we are waiting for is everyone currently unvaccinated to get their immunity either by infection or vaccination. The problem is that the unvaccinated are getting infected too fast.

 

[RocketMedic]

I reckon the mortality rate for COVID without intervention of any sort is around 8-12%. Which is terrifying when you think about it.

 

[FlorianFred]

Been a while for an update....I'm the guy who had his 1st Moderna end of December 2020, 2nd Moderna end of January, and breakthrough Covid (verified by testing) at the end of July. My postings are in this Megathread. Sometime ago (I'd estimate 3 or 4 weeks ago) I developed parosmia. I did completely lose my sense of smell and taste with Covid, but both slowly returned -- and appeared to be coming back normally. But then something strange happened, my sense of smell went haywire. Some smells are as I remember, but some are vastly different then what they used to be, but are also producing the same fragrance. Coffee, feces, the odor produced by my sweat glands, along with a whole host of other scents now smell like a combination of fermented onions and garlic (best descriptor I can come up with). Citrus smells are fine, but it strikes me that about 60% of things I inhale produce that toxic scent. Needless to say, my coffee leaves that taste in my mouth, and whereas I would deeply inhale and enjoy fresh ground coffee, I have to hold my breath while setting up the pot....it's strong enough and bad enough to make me nauseous. I'm hoping this will pass, but the limited research I've done on this is really uncertain....maybe it corrects in 6 months, or maybe it never corrects.

I wasn't sure if this update belonged in this thread at all, but thought I'd post it as part of my ongoing Covid-saga.

 

[ffemt8978]

I reckon the mortality rate for COVID without intervention of any sort is around 8-12%. Which is terrifying when you think about it.

Source for this claim?

CDC Now Reports COVID Cases and Deaths by Vax Status

New tool also reveals numeric differences between vaccines

www.medpagetoday.com

That shows a 13.23 per 100,000 rate.

 

[Summit]

Source for this claim?

CDC Now Reports COVID Cases and Deaths by Vax Status

New tool also reveals numeric differences between vaccines

www.medpagetoday.com

That shows a 13.23 per 100,000 rate.

You are correctly quoting a mortality rate (deaths in one week/100K in this case) which are not given as percentages.

Rocket Medic used the incorrect term. Case fatality rate (which are percentages) is probably the term intended (deaths/cases) with no treatment interventions, not even home O2. He might be a little high, but not be too far off. He is right that the concept is terrifying and the primary motivation for not overwhelming the healthcare system.

Epidemiology terms are easily confused. I think herd immunity is the hardest thing for people to get.

 

[EpiEMS]

You are correctly quoting a mortality rate (deaths in one week/100K in this case) which are not given as percentages.

Rocket Medic used the incorrect term. Case fatality rate (which are percentages) is probably the term intended (deaths/cases) with no treatment interventions, not even home O2. He might be a little high, but not be too far off. He is right that the concept is terrifying and the primary motivation for not overwhelming the healthcare system.

Epidemiology terms are easily confused. I think herd immunity is the hardest thing for people to get.

Lest we forget, CFR can vary hugely by demographic factors (age, gender, etc.)…

(CFR may or may not be the best measure since it is based on confirmed cases, thus could exclude the potential asymptomatic unconfirmed cases.)

 

[ffemt8978]

You are correctly quoting a mortality rate (deaths in one week/100K in this case) which are not given as percentages.

Rocket Medic used the incorrect term. Case fatality rate (which are percentages) is probably the term intended (deaths/cases) with no treatment interventions, not even home O2. He might be a little high, but not be too far off. He is right that the concept is terrifying and the primary motivation for not overwhelming the healthcare system.

Epidemiology terms are easily confused. I think herd immunity is the hardest thing for people to get.

Which is why I asked for his source.

 

[Fezman92]

You are correctly quoting a mortality rate (deaths in one week/100K in this case) which are not given as percentages.

Rocket Medic used the incorrect term. Case fatality rate (which are percentages) is probably the term intended (deaths/cases) with no treatment interventions, not even home O2. He might be a little high, but not be too far off. He is right that the concept is terrifying and the primary motivation for not overwhelming the healthcare system.

Epidemiology terms are easily confused. I think herd immunity is the hardest thing for people to get.

So is mortality rate in a combination people who die who did get treatment and those who didn’t get treatment?

 

[Summit]

So is mortality rate in a combination people who die who did get treatment and those who didn’t get treatment?

You can get as specific as you want as long as you have the data, or you can stay general. IF you had the data, you could have a mortality rate for green eyed red haired left handed women between the ages on 35 and 39 over a 31 day period in May who were unvaccinated and received monoclonals, but I don't know what you'd learn from it

Yes, in this case, it is the 13/100K mortality rate is for unvaccinated people in the US during the second week of August, treated or not. We don't have a lot of untreated in the US because that requires someone to not seek/refuse treatment not have anyone call an ambulance. I'm not sure the data exists to parse. Rural India during their surge and O2 shortage crisis had untreated people, but try to get good data out of that especially with local/regional government suppression of the data that was collected.

A fairer judgement of an untreated CFR is looking at what the severe/critical case rate (basically those requiring O2 or hospitalization) is in a population with good testing rates before effective treatments like monoclonal came into play... and assuming most of them will die.

 

[DrParasite]

With the EUA being approved to administer the vaccine to kids 5 to 11, how many of you (who have kids) are going to vaccinate them? I'll be honest, I'll put a lot of stuff into my body without a second thought, but I'm more hesitant to do the same for my 5 year old son... Do I think it's going to kill him? absolutely not, but myocarditis is a known possibility (even though the actual cause is still unknown), and I don't know if there will be much of a benefit, and the long term research hasn't been completed yet.

And just to repeat, I got the two shots back in Jan/Feb, and I'm not anti-vax.... but my risk tolerance for myself is a lot higher than my risk tolerance for my family.

 

[GMCmedic]

With the EUA being approved to administer the vaccine to kids 5 to 11, how many of you (who have kids) are going to vaccinate them? I'll be honest, I'll put a lot of stuff into my body without a second thought, but I'm more hesitant to do the same for my 5 year old son... Do I think it's going to kill him? absolutely not, but myocarditis is a known possibility (even though the actual cause is still unknown), and I don't know if there will be much of a benefit, and the long term research hasn't been completed yet.

And just to repeat, I got the two shots back in Jan/Feb, and I'm not anti-vax.... but my risk tolerance for myself is a lot higher than my risk tolerance for my family.

We're going to reconsider it next fall when there is hopefully more data. Right now judging off local numbers, there doesn't seem to be much benefit in vaccinating our oldest (8).

 

[EpiEMS]

In a school setting, I’d be inclined to vaccinate. Schools, prisons, hospitals, nursing homes - all incubators of infectious disease.

 

[Summit]

What EpiEMS said and additionally the #1 cause of myocarditis is viral infection. COVID causes it. The risk from vaccine is less than the disease.

 

[mgr22]

With the EUA being approved to administer the vaccine to kids 5 to 11, how many of you (who have kids) are going to vaccinate them? I'll be honest, I'll put a lot of stuff into my body without a second thought, but I'm more hesitant to do the same for my 5 year old son... Do I think it's going to kill him? absolutely not, but myocarditis is a known possibility (even though the actual cause is still unknown), and I don't know if there will be much of a benefit, and the long term research hasn't been completed yet.

And just to repeat, I got the two shots back in Jan/Feb, and I'm not anti-vax.... but my risk tolerance for myself is a lot higher than my risk tolerance for my family.

I have a 5-year-old grandson in kindergarten. I suggested that he be vaccinated because I believe the risk of the disease is greater than the risk of the vaccine. There was no disagreement between his mother and me on that, but he got COVID before he could get the shot. He's still in quarantine and seems to be doing ok. His parents had already been vaccinated x3.

 

[DrParasite]

What EpiEMS said and additionally the #1 cause of myocarditis is viral infection. COVID causes it. The risk from vaccine is less than the disease.

do you have a study or official source that shows this? I'm in an argument with an idiot on FB (I know, I know, it never ends well) over this, but would love to be able to provide an actual source that says covid causes myocarditis, and it's occurs in greater numbers than from the vaccine.

We're going to reconsider it next fall when there is hopefully more data. Right now judging off local numbers, there doesn't seem to be much benefit in vaccinating our oldest (8).

I'll be honest, I'm leaning towards this position, but mom and grandma are disagreeing... there are a lot of unknown, and a I'm not seeing the benefit as of yet... not saying he shouldn't get it, but not right now, and not until I see more data.

and yes @EpiEMS, schools are known hotspots for all types of illnesses (kids are disgusting petri dishes, have been for generations), but, to my knowledge, there haven't been ANY major covid outbreaks in schools, despite many experts saying it was going to happen. in fact, covid is more dangerous to the teachers than to the students, so if the teachers are vaxed, the risk declines greatly. but hand/foot/mouth disease is currently spreading in schools, as is the common cold; covid, not so much.

 

[ffemt8978]

OSHA Suspends ETS Enforcement due to Fifth Circuit’s Latest Take on Vaccine Rule -- Occupational Health & Safety

The future of the Emergency Temporary Standard remains uncertain.

ohsonline.com

OSHA suspends enforcement plans for vaccine mandate due to 5th Circuit stay and questions about its implementation.

The opinion calls the ETS the rare government pronouncement that is both over-inclusive (applying to employers and employees in virtually all industries and workplaces in America, with little attempt to account for the obvious differences between the risks they face) and under-inclusive (claiming to save employees with 99 or more coworkers from a “grave danger” in the workplace, while making no attempt to help employees with 98 or fewer coworkers from the very same threat).

 

[fm_emt]

I got both Pfizer vaccines earlier this year. But at this point, I am not seeing enough data that has me rushing out to get a booster. Case rates here are pretty low, even breakthrough infections are pretty mild, and it's kind of just fizzling out for now. I may probably get one in the future but for now, it is not high on my priority list.

 

[EpiEMS]

do you have a study or official source that shows this? I'm in an argument with an idiot on FB (I know, I know, it never ends well) over this, but would love to be able to provide an actual source that says covid causes myocarditis, and it's occurs in greater numbers than from the vaccine.

I'll be honest, I'm leaning towards this position, but mom and grandma are disagreeing... there are a lot of unknown, and a I'm not seeing the benefit as of yet... not saying he shouldn't get it, but not right now, and not until I see more data.

and yes @EpiEMS, schools are known hotspots for all types of illnesses (kids are disgusting petri dishes, have been for generations), but, to my knowledge, there haven't been ANY major covid outbreaks in schools, despite many experts saying it was going to happen. in fact, covid is more dangerous to the teachers than to the students, so if the teachers are vaxed, the risk declines greatly. but hand/foot/mouth disease is currently spreading in schools, as is the common cold; covid, not so much.

Perhaps the AAP precis here will be helpful? https://publications.aap.org/aapnews/news/16388?autologincheck=redirected

Re: school infections, depends on what you consider an outbreak. MMWR has a number of reports of index cases —> 30+ infected.

 

[Summit]

do you have a study or official source that shows this? I'm in an argument with an idiot on FB (I know, I know, it never ends well) over this, but would love to be able to provide an actual source that says covid causes myocarditis, and it's occurs in greater numbers than from the vaccine.

It has long been known re the cause. Here is a simple cut and paste from UpToDate including some hot links to sources:

"In resource-abundant countries, viral infection is the most frequently presumed cause of myocarditis. In the 1980s and 1990s, enteroviruses (Coxsackie B and others) were frequently associated with myocarditis and dilated cardiomyopathy. In the past 20 years, however, other viruses, including adenovirus, parvovirus B19, hepatitis C, and herpes virus 6, have emerged as significant pathogens [4]. In many resource-limited countries, rheumatic carditis, Chagas disease, and disorders associated with HIV infection are important causes of myocarditis.

Viral or "idiopathic" myocarditis — Viral infection is the most commonly identified cause of lymphocytic myocarditis [16,17]. In the 1960s, a link was suggested by seroepidemiologic studies between enteroviral infection, particularly coxsackievirus, and human myocarditis [18]. Since that time, approximately 20 viruses have been implicated in human myocarditis."

And so to for Pericarditis:
"in developed countries, most cases of acute pericarditis in immunocompetent patients are due to viral infection or are idiopathic; it is generally assumed that most cases of "idiopathic" pericarditis are viral in etiology. Because of the relatively benign course associated with the most common causes of pericarditis (>80 percent of cases), it is not necessary to search for the etiology in all patients. As such, most patients are treated for a presumptive viral cause with nonsteroidal anti-inflammatory drugs (NSAIDs) and colchicine."

 

[ffemt8978]

It looks like the drug companies are planning on tweaking their vaccines for the omicron variant. This could mean that those who've already gotten a booster could be required to get a fourth (or third) vaccination. It will be interesting to see how effective the current vaccines are against this variant, or if they will drop below their relatively high efficiency.

COVID variant spreads to more countries as world on alert

The new potentially more contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus has popped up in more European countries, just days after being identified in South Africa., leaving governments around the world scrambling to stop the spread.

apnews.com

A number of pharmaceutical firms, including AstraZeneca, Moderna, Novavax and Pfizer, said they have plans in place to adapt their vaccines in light of the emergence of omicron.

Professor Andrew Pollard, the director of the Oxford Vaccine Group which developed the AstraZeneca vaccine, expressed cautious optimism that existing vaccines could be effective at preventing serious disease from the omicron variant.