Law Enforcement Response to EMS Calls

[jhickey304]

What is the opinions out there of leo's trained in ems when it comes to helping on calls. Is it a help, get in the way or what? Just curious.

 

[RocketMedic]

100% for it 99% of the time.

 

[STXmedic]

http://m.ksat.com/news/New-SAPD-unit-serves-as-medics/-/15126192/19229694/-/1542skqz/-/index.html

I'm jaded to these guys because I've had a lot of involvement with their upbringing, but we have a system like that and it's awesome when they're on scene. It's not uncommon for the major interventions to be done before we get there. I haven't heard a single negative comment from our medics about them helping on scene.

Even before their program started, if I was short handed on a critical call and the officer said he could help, then jump right in. He wouldn't do anything invasive, but the hands are appreciated.

If it's just a standard run with not much, if anything to do, don't go forcing yourself on the medics asking to help, though. That could get annoying.

 

[NomadicMedic]

The state police have trooper medics on the helo. Most see <20 patients a year, so they're mostly useless.

However, I have had cops do CPR.

 

[Bullets]

Depends on the officer, as with all things

If the department keeps up on their training and such then its a great thing. If they get patient contacts and keep their skills fresh, its great. Our department tries to send EMT officers to medical calls if they are available, and they a generally good. They get almost all of the info we need for a report so when i come in, they hand me the notepad and have a story. In serious calls, they can drop airways, apply tourniquets and give oxygen when needed.

Unfortunatley the department has stopped emphasizing EMT training for the cops, so most of our EMT officers are in their later years on the force. The new guys, about 50% of a 100 person department, have First Responder training. So they can apply a wound dressing, do CPR and a NRB, but most a lazy and sit in thir cars

 

[jrm818]

Of the places I've worked, only one had trained police - most were FR trained. All the cars carry AEDs and a bag with basic first aid stuff and an O2 bottle. One other place we'd be lucky if the cops showed up at all.

it was great to have them involved, especially since they almost universally beat the ambulance to the scene (small town, they weren't crime-fighting much). Usually all they'd really do would be say howdy to the family and control the scene, but even that is helpful (marking the scene with their cars was nice too).

The CPR/AED part was by far the best. It gave us a couple minutes decrease in our no-CPR down time, and they did a much better job than most bystanders. This was a small town with a call EMS department, so having the AED was useful sometimes too, partially just because it got used faster, but also since EMT's, FR's or FFs would come out of the woodwork for a code, and were often close by.

I didn't really care about them having any skills beyond that, or them putting O2 on people, but it gave them something to do at least, and probably helped calm down the scenes. Major A+ just for early scene control, early CPR, and lifting/extrication assitance though.

 

[Handsome Robb]

So I have a question...

We let fire play in our sandbox but they don't let us play in theirs.

Is PD going to let us play cop?

Why do we need EMT trained LEOs? If you're using cardiac arrests as a reason I respond with teach them hands only CPR. Fire already gets in the way enough, I don't need cops trying to jam their hand in as well.

In certain rural areas I see the use for it but I'm suburban and urban areas what's the point?

 

[DrankTheKoolaid]

We have great Leo's in the rural area I work and they are a great help.

In the urban system I work they are there and will help lift and stuff like that, but not with patient care

 

[jrm818]

So I have a question...

We let fire play in our sandbox but they don't let us play in theirs.

Is PD going to let us play cop?

Why do we need EMT trained LEOs? If you're using cardiac arrests as a reason I respond with teach them hands only CPR. Fire already gets in the way enough, I don't need cops trying to jam their hand in as well.

In certain rural areas I see the use for it but I'm suburban and urban areas what's the point?

You've never put out a fire for the FD before? It's fun! Twice (both time my partner actually....which worked out great because the 2nd time the hose popped off the FE and he took a baking soda bath) we've put out some little fire before they got on scene. I will admit they looked sort of grumpy afterwards, though they still decided to run hose with quite a dramatic flair on one.

The system I mentioned is suburban, and I thought it was helpful. Fire doesn't respond there unless there are extreme extrication needs. I don't think EMT training is needed for PD, and even FR may be overkill, but having just having them respond is nice. Partially for early medical care, but also for general scene control/saftey, and lifting assistance for larger patients. Essential? Probably not, except for early CPR. Sure is nice though.

 

[STXmedic]

So I have a question...

We let fire play in our sandbox but they don't let us play in theirs.

Is PD going to let us play cop?

Why do we need EMT trained LEOs? If you're using cardiac arrests as a reason I respond with teach them hands only CPR. Fire already gets in the way enough, I don't need cops trying to jam their hand in as well.

In certain rural areas I see the use for it but I'm suburban and urban areas what's the point?

Where they've been very useful here is PD is usually on scene to certain calls (shootings, stabbings, major accidents) considerably faster than we are. With certain traumatic injuries, the sooner a certain intervention is placed, the better. Just as an example, a few weeks ago on of our tacmed cops was on scene <30 seconds after a major mvc (hadn't even been dispatched yet- he just drove up on it). Lady was ejected and ended up having a large fem artery lac (confirmed later after the trauma doc was looking for him). He had a tourniquet on her leg within two minutes of her injury.

During a shooting, bleeds can be addressed before the scene is even secured (as long as there are sufficient officers on scene- they're still cops first).

They're useful in certain situations. Certainly not every call, but I'm definitely glad they're driving around. Now if they start letting us carry on duty and throwing down from time to time, I wouldn't be too upset... :lol:

 

[Tigger]

The town I grew up in had cops go on all medical calls. Some were EMTs and some MFRs but all had AEDs and an 02/trauma bag. If you were going to survive cardiac arrest it would be because of them considering we had a POC ambulance not staffed in quarters. The ambulance averaged about a 10 minute minimum response time.

Where I am now we get the police in our only town on every call. Some of them are helpful and will get demographics and a story for you, and help lift/carry bags. Others only point towards the door. Realistically we could do without them since we have two FFs in a pickup on a medical calls already.

In the county, the deputies will sometimes show up on calls and carry stuff, really depends on how far away they are. Neither agency has trained their LEOs to more than first aid, so they aren't much help medically.

 

[Clipper1]

A lot of EMS agencies grew from Public Safety departments where the LEOs were also Paramedics and sometimes firefighters. A few places still have these officers. The first AEDs in the early 80s were carried by State Troopers in the rural regions. As long as it does not distract form the law enforcement or safety duties, I think they all should at least be EMT level but with an emphasis on the emergencies most common to their area.

 

[DesertMedic66]

I'm all for officers being trained in very basic first aid. IMO I don't think officers should be trained to the EMT or Medic level unless they are a TacMedic for SWAT.

To second what Robb said, fire does EMS. EMS doesn't do fire. If police does EMS also I doubt we will be doing police work. So now there are even more EMTs in the world which will probably make us on the Ambo not needed as much which means less pay. Ooh and it will definatly turn the ambulance into a taxi cab even more so than it is right now.

 

[STXmedic]

If police does EMS also I doubt we will be doing police work. So now there are even more EMTs in the world which will probably make us on the Ambo not needed as much which means less pay. Ooh and it will definatly turn the ambulance into a taxi cab even more so than it is right now.

Nobody is proposing to make all LEOs trained as EMTs. The question was only asked if you found them helpful. There are already programs in place that have PD trained as either MFRs or EMTs. Are you currently feeling less needed? Have you recently taken a pay cut from EMT Cops moving in? If not, then those points seem irrelevant because nobody is talking about trying to train more cops to be medical providers. Even if that we're the case, just from personal experience, the tactical medic program our PD has is very proactive. They don't only respond to tactical calls. I would love if they took away some of our call load for us, but even with how proactive they are, that's just not the case. Their first job is law enforcement, and MANY agencies around the country are understaffed to do that as effectively as they would like. So them taking over your ambulance shouldn't even be a remote concern. If it is, your ambulance (general, not directed at you) needs to step up its game so that it can't be outperformed by a cop.

ETA: Some EMS does do fire. My PT gig has a combo extrication tool and miniature CAFS system on the ambulance. Also, Search & Rescue, which is historically performed by Fire, is do done by many EMS systems around the country.

 

[TechMedic]

 

[Mariemt]

We are in a rural area and dispatched from home. Our response time from home to garaged averages 3 to 4 minutes. Then from there depending on if the call is in town or outside of town. Our officers are first responders . If someone is to survive a cardiac arrest with a good outcome (walking out of hospital) its because our LEO shows up with an aed and begins CPR. Available off call medics and EMTs will usually go directly to scene and on call will go to ambulance.

LEO do show up to a majority of our calls just to help lift and sometimes I think they like to feel they are helping. They are some great guys though.

 

[DrParasite]

So I have a question...

We let fire play in our sandbox but they don't let us play in theirs.

Is PD going to let us play cop?

Why do we need EMT trained LEOs? If you're using cardiac arrests as a reason I respond with teach them hands only CPR. Fire already gets in the way enough, I don't need cops trying to jam their hand in as well.

In certain rural areas I see the use for it but I'm suburban and urban areas what's the point?

Maybe EMS should be trained in self defense, carry handcuffs, and (gasp!!!) defensive weapons, in case we get to a scene and it goes downhill before PD can get there? After all, what's good for the goose should be good for the gander...

An EMT trained cop is about as worthless as an EMT trained FF; unless you ride on an ambulance regularly, you only see a small part of an EMS call. You want to first respond, great, that means you can show up, put a NRB on the patient, and maybe control some bleeding. and do CPR. But you don't have the frequency of patient contacts to maintain proficiency, nor is it your primary focus. Are their exceptions? sure, but the majority aren't.

I am all in favor of LEOs being CPR certified; it isn't rocket science, and if they can beat EMS to the scene, more power to them. do CPR, maybe even apply a defib and shock a person. Ditto the FD. But most of the information I receive from PD or the FD is either demographics (which i can get myself), inaccurate (assessment based), or wrong. Unless, of course, the EMT or FF works on an ambulance as well, then there is a good chance the information being given is accurate.

let PD do the PD duties; on a cardiac arrest, they need to investigate the death. on a violence scene they need to do secure the scene to ensure safety. If they are controlling bleeding, they aren't securing the scene. It doesn't take any medical training to assist with lifting.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: if you are relying on PD to stop the clock, than you should get more EMS personnel and more ambulances. Or deploy your resources more effectively. To do otherwise is doing a disservice to the public you are serving.

 

[CentralCalEMT]

I think having law enforcement with some training may be more beneficial in rural areas where you want to get at last one person in scene in a reasonable time.

At my full time job, one of the towns we cover sends PD to all medical calls. They are all either EMT or first responder. No fire engine shows up unless it is for an MVA, etc. To me that works well, especially because you will have 1 or 2 police officers rather than 4 or 5 firefighters so the scene does not get too crowded. There is no ego. As soon as we arrive on scene they step back.

I also appreciate it when the sheriff or highway patrol shows up first on MVAs (they beat us by 15 minutes sometimes) and is holding C-Spine, using direct pressure to control bleeding, etc. They also do a good job recognizing when the patient is critical and relaying that information to our dispatch. Sometimes we will launch an air ambulance enroute if law enforcement gives us a size up that makes us think we will need it. Properly trained an used, law enforcement is just another resource we can use to improve patient care.

 

[medicsb]

The first cardiac arrest I work in NJ, the cops were doing CPR and bagging while the EMTs were standing holding the back board and suction. That town had some of the best officers in terms of EMS. Always willing to help, not afraid to recall medics, and didn't suffer from lonely cop syndrome.

EMR/MFR is enough medical training for officers, IMO.

 

[Handsome Robb]

Maybe EMS should be trained in self defense, carry handcuffs, and (gasp!!!) defensive weapons, in case we get to a scene and it goes downhill before PD can get there? After all, what's good for the goose should be good for the gander...

An EMT trained cop is about as worthless as an EMT trained FF; unless you ride on an ambulance regularly, you only see a small part of an EMS call. You want to first respond, great, that means you can show up, put a NRB on the patient, and maybe control some bleeding. and do CPR. But you don't have the frequency of patient contacts to maintain proficiency, nor is it your primary focus. Are their exceptions? sure, but the majority aren't.

I am all in favor of LEOs being CPR certified; it isn't rocket science, and if they can beat EMS to the scene, more power to them. do CPR, maybe even apply a defib and shock a person. Ditto the FD. But most of the information I receive from PD or the FD is either demographics (which i can get myself), inaccurate (assessment based), or wrong. Unless, of course, the EMT or FF works on an ambulance as well, then there is a good chance the information being given is accurate.

let PD do the PD duties; on a cardiac arrest, they need to investigate the death. on a violence scene they need to do secure the scene to ensure safety. If they are controlling bleeding, they aren't securing the scene. It doesn't take any medical training to assist with lifting.

I have said it before, and I will say it again: if you are relying on PD to stop the clock, than you should get more EMS personnel and more ambulances. Or deploy your resources more effectively. To do otherwise is doing a disservice to the public you are serving.

So....we agree then.