Law Enforcement Response to EMS Calls

[ExpatMedic0]

This pretty much sums it up. PD+EMS=Paradox

 

[Clipper1]

This pretty much sums it up. PD+EMS=Paradox

Why the double standard?

Haven't several in EMS been wanting to carry a gun on the job?

If EMTs and Paramedics want the right to shoot people, why shouldn't Police be able to do first aid at the EMT level?

What about SWAT or Tactical Paramedics with the Police department?

 

[Arovetli]

No. We can't even prove that ALS is beneficial other than for respiratory emergencies and pain management. Why would we want to delay a police or fire unit going back into service for the emergencies they are meant for because they have to hop into the back of the ambulance to continue their treatment that a BLS crew cannot transport with alone or diagnostics (eg serial 12-lead)?

Exactly.

Medics are only useful in limited circumstances. Apply your own logic to the problem.

Paramedics struggle with STEMI recognition, true clinical decision making, intubations, advanced procedures, etc. because they 1) are terribly undereducated and undertrained, and 2) have no continuing education or training program useful to keeping them fresh in said advanced areas, and 3) spend the majority of their time driving a taxi as their skills rot.

The majority of patients just need or want to go to and from the doctor because we allowed access to the healthcare system to shift heavily into "emergency" medicine.

This present hybridization of medicine with the transportation industry needs to end.

We need a specialized "field" or out-of-hospital professional, and paramedics fit that role. I would like to see a specialized track develop similar to AA, anesthesiology assistant, yet focused in emergency and prehospital care.

We need ambulances, and ambulance attendants and drivers fit that role.

They are not the best bedfellows; only for the occasional fling should they come together.

In hospitals, sometimes the nurse needs to accompany the transport tech due to the nature of care being provided. However we don't make all transporters nurses just in case they are needed. It's bad and wasteful thinking.

 

[Arovetli]

This pretty much sums it up. PD+EMS=Paradox

While it is a humorous picture, it's a bit much to suggest law enforcement cares only to inflict injury.

Doing violence is part of the job and is done out of necessity. Once it is over there is no justification whatsoever for an officer not to see the prisoners injuries are tended to.

 

[Carlos Danger]

Why the double standard?

Haven't several in EMS been wanting to carry a gun on the job?

If EMTs and Paramedics want the right to shoot people, why shouldn't Police be able to do first aid at the EMT level?

What about SWAT or Tactical Paramedics with the Police department?

Look, if you want to believe that an individual's innate right to self-defense somehow ends just because they put on a work uniform, fine - that's your prerogative.

But I find it difficult to believe that you cannot grasp the difference between an individual carrying a weapon purely for self defense, and an individual performing law enforcement duties.

Maybe you aren't being disingenuous, though....maybe it really is one of those "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand" things.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Exactly.

Medics are only useful in limited circumstances. Apply your own logic to the problem.

Paramedics struggle with STEMI recognition, true clinical decision making, intubations, advanced procedures, etc. because they 1) are terribly undereducated and undertrained, and 2) have no continuing education or training program useful to keeping them fresh in said advanced areas, and 3) spend the majority of their time driving a taxi as their skills rot.

I think much of this statement is quite bias and based on region. However, I do agree to an extent with some of what your saying here, yes Paramedics should receive more education.

The majority of patients just need or want to go to and from the doctor because we allowed access to the healthcare system to shift heavily into "emergency" medicine.

This present hybridization of medicine with the transportation industry needs to end.

Yes the way EMS and the ED is used needs to be changed, and its a full spectrum of things. Paramedic education, reimbursement, policy, and reducing unnecessary ED ambulance transports, to name some. To many people just getting taxi rides in an ambulance then dumped on the ED.

While it is a humorous picture, it's a bit much to suggest law enforcement cares only to inflict injury.

Doing violence is part of the job and is done out of necessity. Once it is over there is no justification whatsoever for an officer not to see the prisoners injuries are tended to.

Perhaps you see the picture as LE caring only to inflict injury. I did not say such a thing. However, there job duties conflict with EMS in a magnitude of ways. To suggest there is no paradox is false, and even if you support LE with PD at an ALS level, does it not form at least a solid conundrum?

 

[Clipper1]

Look, if you want to believe that an individual's innate right to self-defense somehow ends just because they put on a work uniform, fine - that's your prerogative.

But I find it difficult to believe that you cannot grasp the difference between an individual carrying a weapon purely for self defense, and an individual performing law enforcement duties.

Maybe you aren't being disingenuous, though....maybe it really is one of those "if you have to ask, you wouldn't understand" things.

If you read the caption on the photo, I don't think this is for putting a good spin on Police duties.


Did you happen to read any of the discussions on EMS forums about weapon carry?

The big difference here is that police do receive weapons training and can also be trained and certified as an EMT. Rarely will EMTs get the exact same training as a Police Officer at a Police academy. You can try to justify your weapon carry as an EMT but you are still carrying it on the job. Police don't have to use their EMT training everyday either but at least they can be trained and certified with the same competencies to maintain.

Do you think Police are only about beating people while they also have "medic" on their jacket? You should get a better understanding of the role of the Police. In some of these situations, an ambulance may not venture near even if you claim to be carrying your own weapons for self defense. The Police will probably only do the very minimum to control bleeding until safety is reached but may still have advanced training.

 

[Arovetli]

Expat:

I was a paramedic and a cop and never faced any sort of conundrum or paradox or quandary whatsoever.

The only conflicts would be in the initial moments of arriving to a critical scene the officer has safety, offender identification and apprehension, witness ID, and evidence security at the forefront. None of which conflicts with patient care, there is just alot to do in a dangerous environment.

The same way a paramedic can triage a number of patients, an officer can triage his time and handle things accordingly.

The two fields are not mutually exclusive as you suggest.

And what bias are you presuming I have? And of course it's regional, the whole field of EMS is predicated on regions. But if you look at the aggregate, surely you can't tell me that having ALS clinicians moving the poor or granny to and from the doctor is a wise mix.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

The two fields are not mutually exclusive as you suggest.

In all fairness, this is coming from a JD/MD student
While I appreciate your well and thought out responses,and very impressive academic goals.... The duality you posses and suggest is simply not the norm.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Also to be fair, I was a riflemen in the infantry before I became a civilian Paramedic. Talk about opposite career changes

 

[Carlos Danger]

If you read the caption on the photo, I don't think this is for putting a good spin on Police duties.


Did you happen to read any of the discussions on EMS forums about weapon carry?

The big difference here is that police do receive weapons training and can also be trained and certified as an EMT. Rarely will EMTs get the exact same training as a Police Officer at a Police academy. You can try to justify your weapon carry as an EMT but you are still carrying it on the job. Police don't have to use their EMT training everyday either but at least they can be trained and certified with the same competencies to maintain.

Do you think Police are only about beating people while they also have "medic" on their jacket? You should get a better understanding of the role of the Police. In some of these situations, an ambulance may not venture near even if you claim to be carrying your own weapons for self defense. The Police will probably only do the very minimum to control bleeding until safety is reached but may still have advanced training.

I have no idea what you are talking about.