Young EMS Personnell

[Foxbat]

Thats because they hope to become paid firefighters. If EMS ups requirements people will not man up and get the education unless they want a paid position in many cases. There will be exceptions but not many unless the services pay for it, but then you can't really claim you are doing it for free then.

I personally have no intention of becoming a paid FF (and so are many people in my fire classes), but I still attend fire and EMS classes (as well as college A&P) to be better. At the same time, there are a lot of career EMTs who do not attend college and only take minimum con-ed classes.
It's not black and white. On both sides of the fence there are folks willing only to do minimum and vice versa.

 

[VFFforpeople]

No, hold on. This is a teachable moment for you.

"45 y/o woman with long history of migraines, imaged normally 2 years ago by her neurologist comes in with a bad weekend of her typical pattern of migraines. The headache is actually gone by the time I see her in the ED. The husband complains that she is just not acting herself, although she can speak coherently to me in the ED. Nonfocal neuro exam. Go back and forth, whine about the utility of a repeat head CT to myself, and just bite the bullet.

On CT, a mass the size of a small lemon originating in the area of her thalamus with hydrocephalus. And I'm a hero for finding it, when I was not wanting to order that test in the first place. Not the first time I've been humbled to be cautious. Usually it's chest pain."

mike (attending ED physician over at SDN)
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=154841&highlight=medicine+sucks

VFF, doctors must very carefully weigh the risks and benefits in everything that they do. That includes starting treatment for cancer, sometimes it is better to let the patient die without treatment, because the quality of life is much better. Medicine is very far from black and white, and is very complicated and there are rarely right answers to questions. Did you know that we still do not know if oxygen is helpful in the field?

Now we are starting to understand eachother, ya it is a hard choice, but black and white. Either you help or you dont. Same with Fire fighting, I am gonna make entry or not, I am gonna put water on the fire or I am gonna pull back. See we all make tough choices, regardless of being a Dr. or a VFF, but we are all a team, we all do the same job regardless of being paid full time,by call,or stipen. I ask that we are seen equal to you, we all had to take the same classes to get to each level.

 

[daedalus]

I think that you will find that most of us here love to help people, but we work hard for our education. If you really want to help your prehospital patients, you should become a paramedic. And if you want to be the best paramedic you can be, you need to have a college education. This all costs a lot of money and time, you will need to be compensated for your time to make up for the difference. It has nothing to do with a silver spoon. My good friend is in PA school right now, and his family are dirt poor immigrants from mexico. You know how he does it? He demonstrated a great attitude and passion for medicine and got a lot of aid from the government and private organizations.

 

[daedalus]

Now we are starting to understand eachother, ya it is a hard choice, but black and white. Either you help or you dont. Same with Fire fighting, I am gonna make entry or not, I am gonna put water on the fire or I am gonna pull back. See we all make tough choices, regardless of being a Dr. or a VFF, but we are all a team, we all do the same job regardless of being paid full time,by call,or stipen. I ask that we are seen equal to you, we all had to take the same classes to get to each level.

No, it is never black and white. Ever. Its always risk vs. benefit. In elderly patients that need surgery, there is a chance that they will not survive the anesthesia. This is a risk vs. benefit situation. It is not black and white, but a gamble that the patient and provider take together. And sometimes they do not take it, and the patient dies peacefully. Its also never black and white who to give an organ to, if you have seventy people that will die without it and only have one organ. Its a very careful, but never right in everyone's eyes, choice.

 

[VFFforpeople]

I think that you will find that most of us here love to help people, but we work hard for our education. If you really want to help your prehospital patients, you should become a paramedic. And if you want to be the best paramedic you can be, you need to have a college education. This all costs a lot of money and time, you will need to be compensated for your time to make up for the difference. It has nothing to do with a silver spoon. My good friend is in PA school right now, and his family are dirt poor immigrants from mexico. You know how he does it? He demonstrated a great attitude and passion for medicine and got a lot of aid from the government and private organizations.

I would like to apologize for my attitude first off, we get alot of people that bash VFFs. Most of us work for hospitals and get paid. We don't mind Volunteering, right not I am taking NREMT-B, I hope to advance to EMT-P and into CC-P or MICN. Yes alot of school, but I dont look at the money I will make or spend on school, I look at the good I can do. I would become an MICN and work for free at a VFC because I love this profession it is my passion. So, I get worked up sometimes. and I am sorry.

 

[VFFforpeople]

No, it is never black and white. Ever. Its always risk vs. benefit. In elderly patients that need surgery, there is a chance that they will not survive the anesthesia. This is a risk vs. benefit situation. It is not black and white, but a gamble that the patient and provider take together. And sometimes they do not take it, and the patient dies peacefully. Its also never black and white who to give an organ to, if you have seventy people that will die without it and only have one organ. Its a very careful, but never right in everyone's eyes, choice.

You call it gamble, I say black and white. I think we can agree on Risk vs Gain. which I agree with.

 

[daedalus]

I would like to apologize for my attitude first off, we get alot of people that bash VFFs. Most of us work for hospitals and get paid. We don't mind Volunteering, right not I am taking NREMT-B, I hope to advance to EMT-P and into CC-P or MICN. Yes alot of school, but I dont look at the money I will make or spend on school, I look at the good I can do. I would become an MICN and work for free at a VFC because I love this profession it is my passion. So, I get worked up sometimes. and I am sorry.

After RN school, come back. Perhaps your views will have changed by then. Perhaps not. We are all students of life and I wish you luck.

 

[VFFforpeople]

After RN school, come back. Perhaps your views will have changed by then. Perhaps not. We are all students of life and I wish you luck.

I enjoy this site and will stay through my EMT-B career, I do enjoy talking with those. Thank you for the luck, and I hope they don't because if they do..I will have gone to school for nothing, because I will walk away from it. We all need the money, regardless of what you do..I wish you luck on EMT-P school.

 

[Ridryder911]

Again you forget..He doesnt chose if the paitent does Chemo..the paitent decides that. Already you are becoming the worst ALS provider..you forget about the paitent everytime! It is clear cut if you look at it. Chemo paitent may live. Without Chemo paitent may live.The difference is the quaility of treatment and respect they get. Simple Paitent first.

Wow! Let the egos begin, as anyone ever noticed how it is always about themselves and not what is best for the patient? (also, please if your going to write how intillegent you are and how much you know at least spell patient and other basic words correctly! I can understand a missed typo or two but four times so far?) p.s What is a gonna?

Now we are starting to understand eachother, ya it is a hard choice, but black and white. Either you help or you dont. Same with Fire fighting, I am gonna make entry or not, I am gonna put water on the fire or I am gonna pull back. See we all make tough choices, regardless of being a Dr. or a VFF, but we are all a team, we all do the same job regardless of being paid full time,by call,or stipen. I ask that we are seen equal to you, we all had to take the same classes to get to each level.

Whoa! Now, you’re telling me you know more about firefighting than the person that has a Degree in Fire Science and has experience at it too? P-l-e-a-s-e!

Comparing fire suppression to medicine? Been too close that burning vinyl? Hmmm... let's see ? Upper level graduate school, 8 years of medical school and 3-10 years of residency. Oh, okay I see a 2 week course dragging a hose and interior attack entry should be a comparison. It's equal... yeah, right! Please, don't compare the practice of medicine with a trade. There is a reason; you have officers to make those decisions based upon their training and knowledge as well. Yes, I am quite aware of Fire Science, as I have a degree in it also. I was a Captain of a Fire Dept for over 10 years.

I doubt you see many volunteer physicians. Please don't mention the occasional missionary teams or Dr.'s without borders.. yadda, yadda, that most will use for a tax right off their million dollar income. I volunteer for free clinics and missionary trips too; but I can assure you it is not the same or even in comparison with those in the public safety world.

I do thank you though and others for posting, your points are well taken and truthfully you present, point out & demonstrate my reasons for feeling the way I do. Keep up the great posts! It is much more easier with examples; we now can definitely see where the etiology arises.

R/r 911

 

[VFFforpeople]

Wow! Let the egos begin, as anyone ever noticed how it is always about themselves and not what is best for the patient? (also, please if your going to write how intillegent you are and how much you know at least spell patient and other basic words correctly! I can understand a missed typo or two but four times so far?) p.s What is a gonna?



Whoa! Now, you’re telling me you know more about firefighting than the person that has a Degree in Fire Science and has experience at it too? P-l-e-a-s-e!

Comparing fire suppression to medicine? Been too close that burning vinyl? Hmmm... let's see ? Upper level graduate school, 8 years of medical school and 3-10 years of residency. Oh, okay I see a 2 week course dragging a hose and interior attack entry should be a comparison. It's equal... yeah, right! Please, don't compare the practice of medicine with a trade. There is a reason; you have officers to make those decisions based upon their training and knowledge as well. Yes, I am quite aware of Fire Science, as I have a degree in it also. I was a Captain of a Fire Dept for over 10 years.

I doubt you see many volunteer physicians. Please don't mention the occasional missionary teams or Dr.'s without borders.. yadda, yadda, that most will use for a tax right off their million dollar income. I volunteer for free clinics and missionary trips too; but I can assure you it is not the same or even in comparison with those in the public safety world.

I do thank you though and others for posting, your points are well taken and truthfully you present, point out & demonstrate my reasons for feeling the way I do. Keep up the great posts! It is much more easier with examples; we now can definitely see where the etiology arises.

R/r 911

You, know I let it go, seeing as how we are all on the same team, we all do the same job, we all have the same classes we had to take. If I wanted to be you I could do that as well and have the same schooling and same education. So,what others do for free, what other get paid to do. Who are you to say it is wrong? That makes you like me!!! HAHAHAH!!!!! So, there you go champ!! "Wise Men wonder, while Strong men Die!" Thats about what I think of your fire science. They wonder why the hospitals are going down hill, why more people are dieing in ERs, why th quaility of treatment is down...is all comes down to money. You do no good to anyone worrying about HMOs. You know what you said you work at a free clinic, I am not saying YOU have to work for free. I am saying some of us as VFFs only went to school to help. You didn't pay for it, so what does it matter to you what they do? It doesn't leave it at that.

 

[Veneficus]

You, know I let it go, seeing as how we are all on the same team, we all do the same job, we all have the same classes we had to take. If I wanted to be you I could do that as well and have the same schooling and same education..

Rid and I often vehemetly disagree on "how," we usually have the same end goal and I cannot believe you are trying to make such an argument with him. it looks like a child arguing with an expert.

I have to ask: "Are you trying to start a fight?" and "Do you really believe this?"

We are not on the same team. Anytime one group (no matter where) holds another group back, they are definately opposing sides.

We do not do the same job. People like Rid spend a majority of their time working and fighting in healthcare. We have to be paid for it and we do it better than people who spend less time with it. We have gotten exponentially more education, seen exponentially more "bad patients," and make considerably more difficult decisions. We do not have the same "job."
Maybe we have the same philosophy.

If you wanted to be us you wouldn't have time for much other than the schooling and patient contact. Think about that the next time you "disregard a page," or decide you want to spend more time with the family or yourself.

Comparing full time life long practicioners to volunteers is like comparing the t-ball team to the major league all stars. "hitting a home run" just doesn't mean the same.

I was trying not to get involved in this clash, but these posts are bordering on absurd.

 

[Ridryder911]

You, know I let it go, seeing as how we are all on the same team, we all do the same job, we all have the same classes we had to take. If I wanted to be you I could do that as well and have the same schooling and same education. So,what others do for free, what other get paid to do. Who are you to say it is wrong? That makes you like me!!! HAHAHAH!!!!! So, there you go champ!! "Wise Men wonder, while Strong men Die!" Thats about what I think of your fire science. They wonder why the hospitals are going down hill, why more people are dieing in ERs, why th quaility of treatment is down...is all comes down to money. You do no good to anyone worrying about HMOs. You know what you said you work at a free clinic, I am not saying YOU have to work for free. I am saying some of us as VFFs only went to school to help. You didn't pay for it, so what does it matter to you what they do? It doesn't leave it at that.

Please, you are only embarrasing yourself.

Are you sure that I and others did not pay for that firefighting class? It was not funded by Federal and State tax grants and funds?... Here's the deal. When and if you ever do become as you stated then come back & tell me how it is. I am attempting to give you facts and non-mythical reasons, which many are far more emotionally about their passion instead of what is best for the patient.

We do remember, the patient right?

Would you promote lower level of training and non-professional services to any other part of medicine? Do you really think that most of nurses in nursing are not one of the most compassionate groups of people? At the same time, they’re not foolish and definitely will stand up for their profession and their rights, alike I am doing for mine.

You see, I take this profession very, very serious. I take delivering care to the patient damned serious and those involved touching, responding, and acclaiming to deliver medical care to be very competent and educated to be able to do so. There is NO room for errors or gross judgment due to lack of education or experience. Yes, it that serious.

My clients (yes, that is what they are) deserves to be only treated by the best. As a professional educator and manager it is my job to ensure that only those of that caliber do so. If they do not, they get fired and usually have to leave the profession. You see my compassion maybe stronger than some others, I could care less how many children they have or how many bills. My focus is on the patient.

I have never said volunteers are stupid, or should be totally abolished. I teach them and also provide in-services for at least ten volunteer fire departments. What I have said though, for communities that are not remote or can provide better should do so.

I am not worried; I only try to educate and inform. The neat thing is I do get paid and give back to my community all at the same time!

p.s. this is the correct spelling of dying. Heroes are only the dead. Then most of them died foolishly because of someone's screw up. And might want to get with the times; there are very few HMO's left in lieu of PPO's.

For those interested here is a link of the new curriculum/standards

http://www.ems.gov/portal/site/ems/...toid=409589ff3091f110VgnVCM1000002fd17898RCRD

R/r 911

 

[daedalus]

Wow! The new guidelines for EMT instruction include a little psychology and EVB!

 

[Sasha]

if you and your like minded had an open mind to Volunteers

Like you're open minded to paid individuals?

Dont call me kid, I work and go to school, and be paid? Wow, so I can be just like you? Worthless and arrogant?

Already you are becoming the worst ALS provider..you forget about the paitent everytime!

You're so judgemental about a person you don't even know! In reference to the chemo, a patient may choose not to get chemo, but a patient can't choose to get chemo treatment if a doctor doesn't order it.

There are enough doctors,nurses,insuarnce sales people for that. I came for the people, to do my best to help them.

EMS should be working together with doctors and nurses, not trying to insult them every chance you get, you've done that twice here that I'm aware of and I was only skimming.

 

[Scott33]

I am sick of you arrogant paid people, you make me sick..you think because you make a pay check you became better

Ha ha ha ha. ROTFL, PMSL, OMFG, etc etc

I have been a volly for about 8 years now. I continue to contribute more hours per month to vollyism than I do in my paid EMS job.

 

[ffemt8978]

This thread is now reopened provided everyone remembers the rules.

 

[eynonqrs]

True, but "serious" usually involves putting in time and effort to gain "officer" status as opposed to furthering their EMS education.

I have to disagree with that, there are several people in my squad that have more than 15 years invested, and never had the desire to run for an officers spot. I have never been a line officer, only administrative.

 

[Shishkabob]

Rid and I hardly ever see eye to eye on anything, but I agree with him on this matter.

I have nothing more to add.

 

[medic417]

You see, I take this profession very, very serious. I take delivering care to the patient damned serious and those involved touching, responding, and acclaiming to deliver medical care to be very competent and educated to be able to do so. There is NO room for errors or gross judgment due to lack of education or experience. Yes, it is that serious.



R/r 911

What he said. Excellent point. It is about the patient not our egos and feelings. Get the education. Become a Pre Hospital Medical Professional. Playing games with peoples lives is just wrong.

As to young people. I do think that if they were required a college education to get into the field age would not be an issue.

 

[UKEMT]

Based on the system over in the UK

The minimum age is 21 to be working full time in the NHS Ambulance Service, this is due to the age restrictions placed by the driving agency for the licences required. Any volunteer work has to be done through St John's Ambulance Service and then is not working on front line ambulances they tend to cover sporting and public events and in some areas patient transfer services.

This is all dependant on the training they have received and as such the age limits over here for the volunteer sector are 16-17 but then they are always attached to a senior member of staff.

It is also from experience that the NHS Ambulance service (front line) requires candidates to have life experience and also work experience in a healthcare setting before considering certain applicants this is to ensure that when working you are able to communicate / handle the high pressure work load /emotional emphasis that can be placed on you at certain calls( not saying that all younger aged people cant deal with this butit has been shown that older people are able to deal with this due to "life experience").

but this is in my opinion.