I don't understand the reason for getting a college degree. You can have all the fancy letters and numbers after ones name, but common sense is the key here. And besides, are people going to go to college and come out to get a $10 an hour job ? I don't think so. It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this. The young people are the future of EMS. And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon. You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more. We are grateful that we can provide for our community. I have made my points. And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.
Young EMS Personnell
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I don't understand the reason for getting a college degree. You can have all the fancy letters and numbers after ones name, but common sense is the key here. And besides, are people going to go to college and come out to get a $10 an hour job ? I don't think so. It seems like some of you will stop at nothing to elimate volunteers and telling young people that don't even waste thier time doing this. The young people are the future of EMS. And the volunteers are not going away anytime soon. You know, our squad has 30+ active members and we are going to be voting on 6 more. We are grateful that we can provide for our community. I have made my points. And for the young officers, good luck to you, and congrats.
medic417
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If education requirements go up so will pay. For example see nursing. They used to be a dime a dozen but they organized upped education and now are getting good pay. So bad example as to why college is bad idea.
Now back to the question that was asked would volunteer services oppose requiring college degree to enter EMS? I think you already said yes based on your response but maybe I misunderstood.
BLSBoy
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Go back to school for a lesson in supply and demand.
On second thought, go for economics and spelling.
It is possibly so that more people will become educated and have some advanced education.
However I think EMS is stuck in a rock and a hard place right now. Many people want to make a college degree mandatory, however good college programs are few and far between. Once they start meeting a new higher standard (like nursing), I see that not many schools will start programs, because it is hard/expensive to meet the standards. In addition enrollment would be small (just like nursing), because it is hard to meet the standards when you have hundreds enrolled. So they increase selectiveness of the program. Then leading to a shortage of providers since vollies got the boot.
We will see though. Someone will probably come up with a good plan.
BLSBoy
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To follow up, yes, some of us WILL stop at nothing to eliminate vollies.
What other professions have to deal with not only people who want to do it for free, but who have support organizations that lobby legislators to keep the education requirements low, and who refuse to bill for services, which in turn eliminates funding for other agencies!?
Once you get to the paramedic level, in order to be a competent provider you must be able to make clinical decisions based on knowledge and critical thinking. The current Basic EMT Level is skill based, much like a carpenter or welder.
Whoever is feeding you the info college is not needed in trying to protect themselves against their own shortcomings.
With an increase in education in western society comes an increase is pay. We value knowledge over labor.
I do not think volunteers are going away soon. As much as I like the new national curriculum I think it will be a very hard sell. It would be a much better strategy to encourage volunteers to come on board. Again, inclusion vs. exclusion strategy.
It was once said that "common sense is the set of prejudices we aquire before 18"
BLSBoy
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I think that having every person who works on an ambulance needing a degree is unnecessary, and overkill.
That is akin to dispatching a full box alarm for a trash fire, or sending a battalion of soldiers to secure a single structure.
Sure, you could always use the extra, but it is prohibitive in the cost/benefit analysis.
Up the EMT education to 500 hrs of classroom, and 500 of clinical time, and expand their scope of practice to include a few more interventions.
Medic should be a 2 year degree.
Create a PA position for public heath needs, to eliminate some of the problem callers, or simple things like "I need a new Rx"
medic417
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500 more hours would not be enough to add new skills. It would just be enough to to give some basic education behind the skills already allowed.
BLSBoy
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There are a few interventions I would like to see them get, such as Albuterol neb treatments, check BGL, basic cardiac monitoring, IM Glucagon, and an airway securing device, such as combitube, LMA, etc.
Ridryder911
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They have that, its called going back and getting their Paramedic.
Ever noticed the ones that debate education are usually the ones that do not have a formal education.. ever wonder how one would make a rationale debate? ...Let's not get too smart! Let's keep it at the 6'th grade level.. you know it's only emergency medicine! Gosh! They would have to start paying us decent wages... and..."Gulp! Start requiring us to read more than one book!"
Show me another medical professionals that do not require an degree for entrance level?
Again, if you want the money, prestige, benefits of being a professional then one has to perform the requirements & yes that means becoming educated and not trained.
For as volunteers.. Time will demonstrate they will be a thing of the past in many areas. As the new curriculum will have several more hours and have components of sympathetic nervous system, public health, etc. and less emphasis on memorization for skills we have predicted an increase in the fail rate in classroom and the certification level. Required transitional courses for all those below the Paramedic level to keep their certification will add more education and training. This will be part of the process of weeding out those that are really serious and those that just want a hobby.
Hang onto your hat.. things are about to get interesting!
R/r 911
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BLSBoy
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Rid, I am basing what I stated upon working in a hospital as a tech, and going through the training I had to.
Minimum of EMT, Phlebotomy/EKG, and working alongside a preceptor for at least 2 months, until I was deemed worthy to work on my own with no supervision.
Like I said, not every thing needs to be tended to by an RN or Paramedic. I am one who fully supports a tech position, but only if they are sufficiently trained and educated for their responsibilities.
Minimum of EMT, Phlebotomy/EKG, and working alongside a preceptor for at least 2 months, until I was deemed worthy to work on my own with no supervision.
Like I said, not every thing needs to be tended to by an RN or Paramedic. I am one who fully supports a tech position, but only if they are sufficiently trained and educated for their responsibilities.
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Well here we go again, are you saying I am stupid ??? Well for your information I do have a college degree. And here we go again with the hobby business. There are people that are serious as volunteers. You people think all we want to do is be wackers and play with lights and sirens. Well paid people can be wackers just as volunteers. Training requirments may go up, and will still have people that will volunteer. You people make me sick. Volunteer's work just as hard as paid services do, so knock off the crap. Let's see who has the last laugh. I worked very hard to serve my community. I am not a "mommy may I" or have been feed with a silver spoon. Money means nothing to me. Money is the root of all evil. I am not greedy. I am giving back to my community.
Slow down.
First you need to understand that it has been the volunteer provider lobby that has been a major factor in holding back EMS. It doesn't mean all volunteers are hobbyists. It doesn't mean there won't be volunteers who are dedicated enough to go through the requirements.
I have not seen the latest of the curriculum changes, I would appreciate a link or a copy if anyone would be so kind.
But as soon as it goes for approval, the fire lobby and the supporters of 5 medics on every truck will go crazy. A huge number of non educated medics grandfathered in will be a thorn in the side for years to come.
Another united lobby of volunteers and IAFF/IAFC will make it dead in the water just like every other time. Just wait till municipalities figure out the cost as well. Even if it gets approved at an adminiistration level it will not stop an injunction or lawsuit.
If you are not a hobbyist and truly dedicate pay the volunteer comments no mind. It is like when 1 paramedic messes up and public says all paramedics must be like that. Similar to how when one person in the Navy does something wrong and everyone goes crazy about how all sailors are bad.
Don't get me wrong, I support the change. but I am an operations type of guy, you can draw whatever you like up on paper, I want to see it work, which includes a realistic plan to put it into effect.
Hey all,
I'm going to throw in my few words now, since I don't necessarily get a lot of time online considering I'm overseas at the moment. (Which I'm trying to turn into a good opportunity to knock out a lot of Gen Ed requirements towards a potential BSN, so any advice via PM from Vent, Rid, etc is never unappreciated.)
Anyways, I see this broken down into a few main points:
1) Young providers vs experience
- 18 years old, graduate of High School to begin schooling. It's the same as any other profession. Whether volunteer or paid, there is no reason to have providers still in High School. Now, this is the fact that im still young and completely irresponsible, but in High School I knew I wanted to get involved with EMS when I graduated and experience it first hand. Of course, when I was in High School I was busy with keeping my grades decent, swimming, going out with friends, the stupid things you get away with(drinking, sneaking out, etc). There's no reason to push yourself to grow up to fast, experience it when you have the chance.
2) Observers, young or old
- Observers don't have a place unless they serve an actual purpose. Students are OK, but not if they're only there to "help out". If I need help I'll call for assistance, or recruit a FF or LEO. I do a fair number of ALS intercepts when I'm stateside with Ambulance Corps that have a clown car full, and it always seems as if there are multiple 15 and 16 year olds. It aggravates the hell out of me sometimes, just because I need to work around them. And I can't even teach them too much, because most of them don't have any foundation for the knowledge. You can't very well explain any cardiac issues without any anatomy and physiology training.
3) Vollie vs Paid
- First of all, I'm in NY, and have worked CT and PA. The systems I've seen are BS. I want to see call statistics from any vollie departments that states that they provide effective care in comparison to a paid department. First the tones drop for a BLS squad and they dispatch ALS if necessary. Then all their members decide if it's an exciting call and if they should respond. Otherwise, they can just let the county tone out for another squad. And hell to the Paramedic who is sitting on scene in a fly car. And if it's dispatched BLS it will take a long time for a unit to get on scene and recognize the need for an ALS unit to the scene. The amount of time for the patient to receive what should be the minimal standard of care is completely crazy. When you had a paid service, at least the ambulance gets out the door and en route to the residence in a reasonable amount of time. And I know "but my department ALWAYS crews up." BULL:censored::censored::censored::censored:. In order to be effective you should probably have a standard to uphold. Something like 90% of calls we will be en route within 2 minutes, on-scene within x minutes, en route to the hospital within x minutes(for those of you that utilize the BLS fly car system).
I have no problem working with volunteers that act professionally, and provide something to their community(like making it to the scene before the ALS unit). I should not have to worry about getting in trouble because I was on scene and began transport to the hospital and upset the BLS crew because I didn't wait for them. If you say your community can't support a paid system, look larger, go to the county level. Do something. Advocating more resources to go to an ineffectual volunteer department doesn't solve anything.
Obviously the usual arguments apply:
-BLS education standards need to be raised
-A&P for everyone
-ALS education standards to be raised
I'm going to throw in my few words now, since I don't necessarily get a lot of time online considering I'm overseas at the moment. (Which I'm trying to turn into a good opportunity to knock out a lot of Gen Ed requirements towards a potential BSN, so any advice via PM from Vent, Rid, etc is never unappreciated.)
Anyways, I see this broken down into a few main points:
1) Young providers vs experience
- 18 years old, graduate of High School to begin schooling. It's the same as any other profession. Whether volunteer or paid, there is no reason to have providers still in High School. Now, this is the fact that im still young and completely irresponsible, but in High School I knew I wanted to get involved with EMS when I graduated and experience it first hand. Of course, when I was in High School I was busy with keeping my grades decent, swimming, going out with friends, the stupid things you get away with(drinking, sneaking out, etc). There's no reason to push yourself to grow up to fast, experience it when you have the chance.
2) Observers, young or old
- Observers don't have a place unless they serve an actual purpose. Students are OK, but not if they're only there to "help out". If I need help I'll call for assistance, or recruit a FF or LEO. I do a fair number of ALS intercepts when I'm stateside with Ambulance Corps that have a clown car full, and it always seems as if there are multiple 15 and 16 year olds. It aggravates the hell out of me sometimes, just because I need to work around them. And I can't even teach them too much, because most of them don't have any foundation for the knowledge. You can't very well explain any cardiac issues without any anatomy and physiology training.
3) Vollie vs Paid
- First of all, I'm in NY, and have worked CT and PA. The systems I've seen are BS. I want to see call statistics from any vollie departments that states that they provide effective care in comparison to a paid department. First the tones drop for a BLS squad and they dispatch ALS if necessary. Then all their members decide if it's an exciting call and if they should respond. Otherwise, they can just let the county tone out for another squad. And hell to the Paramedic who is sitting on scene in a fly car. And if it's dispatched BLS it will take a long time for a unit to get on scene and recognize the need for an ALS unit to the scene. The amount of time for the patient to receive what should be the minimal standard of care is completely crazy. When you had a paid service, at least the ambulance gets out the door and en route to the residence in a reasonable amount of time. And I know "but my department ALWAYS crews up." BULL:censored::censored::censored::censored:. In order to be effective you should probably have a standard to uphold. Something like 90% of calls we will be en route within 2 minutes, on-scene within x minutes, en route to the hospital within x minutes(for those of you that utilize the BLS fly car system).
I have no problem working with volunteers that act professionally, and provide something to their community(like making it to the scene before the ALS unit). I should not have to worry about getting in trouble because I was on scene and began transport to the hospital and upset the BLS crew because I didn't wait for them. If you say your community can't support a paid system, look larger, go to the county level. Do something. Advocating more resources to go to an ineffectual volunteer department doesn't solve anything.
Obviously the usual arguments apply:
-BLS education standards need to be raised
-A&P for everyone
-ALS education standards to be raised
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bstone
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Rid,
There actually is a volunteer, hobby police force in the US- it's called the Police Auxiliary (or Reserve). In my area they are weekend warriors. They wear uniforms and are armed. They even have squad cars. They are part of the State Police. Many local and county police also have them.
There actually is a volunteer, hobby police force in the US- it's called the Police Auxiliary (or Reserve). In my area they are weekend warriors. They wear uniforms and are armed. They even have squad cars. They are part of the State Police. Many local and county police also have them.
Foxbat
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I doubt anyting interesting will happen. Some volunteers (and some paid EMTs) will whine but they will take the transition course and stay.
daedalus
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I doubt you have been in EMS as long as rid/ryder, so lets not condemn to the new changes just yet, because they may be our last best hope.
bstone, I am not interested in the police force, its not my chosen profession and I have no will to help it advance. It too needs a lot of work, and those volunteers are probably a thorn in their side as well.
daedalus
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Oh boy. I nuked some pizza to read the replies this gem got.
Optimally, in a better not perfect and not so hard to attain world, paramedics should have a wealth of education. They should have basic science so they can understand the body in new ways like never before, they should be students of history and english to promote critical thinking and breadth of education, and math to help their problem solving abilities. Not only will they now be educated professionals, but and this one is a big one, they will get respect from doctors and other allied health professionals.
medic417
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No most vollys will not take it if it comes about. But sadly they and fire will whine and cry and this change will get canceled. Honestly I would not be shocked if education requirements actually get easier rather than tougher. I think fire knows that to and that is why we are seeing more fire diploma mills opening up. If they thought it was going to get tougher in 3 years they would have opened now at the tougher standards rather than having to completely retool their schools if it happens.
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