Why are Paramedics paid so little?

Important question where do you guys with the gravy train jobs live, and what department do you work for.
 
Hunter said:
Important question where do you guys with the gravy train jobs live, and what department do you work for.
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Do some hunting around (pardon my pun). They're spread all over the place.

I will say that there seem to be quite a few top-notch systems in Texas ;)

Just know that many of these systems are very difficult to get on to. You'll need to really make yourself stand out.
 
sorry should have quoted....it was to pedstech's post about what he needed to go to para school...

i don't have to have letters of req...although i would have gladly supplied them. I don't have to have medical insurance (which i don't)..they take care of that while i'm on school business....i don't have med liability...or any background checks

but the rest is all the same
 
PoeticInjustice said:
Do some hunting around (pardon my pun). They're spread all over the place.

I will say that there seem to be quite a few top-notch systems in Texas ;)

Just know that many of these systems are very difficult to get on to. You'll need to really make yourself stand out.
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Well I'm in florida, definitely willing to move, I have been looking around, ofcourse a name of a department/company would always be appreciated.
 
Hunter said:
Important question where do you guys with the gravy train jobs live, and what department do you work for.
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I don't reveal what agency I work for, but I will say that I live in New Jersey, and work in the NY Metro Area (in the NJ part).

If you want to know more, PM me and I can tell you some of the higher paying places near me
 
crashh said:
sorry should have quoted....it was to pedstech's post about what he needed to go to para school...

i don't have to have letters of req...although i would have gladly supplied them. I don't have to have medical insurance (which i don't)..they take care of that while i'm on school business....i don't have med liability...or any background checks

but the rest is all the same
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Actually I was quoting ChaseZ33. It can get a bit confusing aound here.
 
JPINFV said:
As long as paramedics are seen as medical technician taxi drivers, then they're over educated and properly paid for what they do. If paramedics want to do something else than medical taxi work while following a cookbookocol, then the current education isn't nearly enough. The problem is that you can't be expected to do non-taxi non-cookbookocol work and THEN get more education. You have to have the education to justify the additional work, and subsequent reimbursement.


What I find interesting is the attitude of, "Well, things aren't working. We're struggling to get by because insurance views us as nothing more than a taxi (hence only being reimbursed when we transport). However, even though it's a failing system, we can't change anything on our end because it's too expensive for us. Pay us more, allow us to do more, and then we'll get the education to do it properly. After all, what could go wrong when we do things we aren't educated to do?"

[insert story of DCFD leaving a chest pain patient at home because they thought a pulmonary embolism was GERD]
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Some time ago I think we all came to a conclusion on what level of training would make the ideal 911 providers. If memory serves me right it was a PA and an RN working together. To me and I think most of you this would be ideal of course both would have to have specific training in pre hospital emergency medicine.

Having never been involved in the actual budgeting of staff for a 911 agency I can only throw out numbers off the top of my head. We do have some community members who have been in that position and maybe they could jump in and offer more precise numbers. In order to staff a crew consisting of a PA and an RN I would think it would be more than triple the cost of what it takes to run a basic and a medic.

One option could be to only staff a certain number of cars at that level with the remaining maybe being units staffed by a cc medic and a traditional medic eliminating basics all together. BLS could be covered by fire either paid or volunteer as it is now in many places. Once again we are faced with the problem of where would the extra money come from and what about the areas that really have no extra revenue for such an expensive venture.

Maybe looking at it from the angle of what percentage of all calls placed to 911 require traditional ALS. Once again Im working with rough numbers but I think it an 80/20 split in most areas. A far as the medi taxi (non emergent) end of the business goes I think they would work it out with the funding currently available. Im not real sure what the profit margin is for the dialysis and IFT ends of the business but perhaps they should be seperated fom 911.
 
crashh said:
Why, with the advanced skill level, are paramedics paid so little?
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Very simple. Until paramedics can learn to work together to demand higher wages from their employers for their skillset, then we are doomed to fail. Everyone is afraid of the word union, but it's worked for the nurses and the firefighters and it should work for us.
 
NomexMedic said:
Very simple. Until paramedics can learn to work together to demand higher wages from their employers for their skillset, then we are doomed to fail. Everyone is afraid of the word union, but it's worked for the nurses and the firefighters and it should work for us.
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For nurses the employers have also now said you must have a BSN (4 year degree) before your application is considered regardless of the minimum entry standard.

Fore Firefighters they must also have a Paramedic cert in addition to their FF training and certs thus attempting to keep up with two very different professions. The union in turn will back them for also providing EMS but will see that the Paramedic cert does not get so demanding it interferes with the fire side. For this reason also the Paramedic cert has remained the same for the past 40 plus years.
 
NomexMedic said:
Very simple. Until paramedics can learn to work together to demand higher wages from their employers for their skillset, then we are doomed to fail. Everyone is afraid of the word union, but it's worked for the nurses and the firefighters and it should work for us.
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That is the problem, paramedics are in no position to demand higher wages. Every other healthcare profession continues to move forward and raise their standards of education on their own accord. Nurses are now requiring bachelors, RT need bachelors and some masters. OT/PT now need their masters and doctorates to practice. I know you can say the current pay does not justify getting a higher degree but you can not demand higher pay without it. The education must come first. Its how most professions work.

Just like nurses over the years from diploma to AD to BSN. Many nurses were getting BSNs when they first came out but did not see any increase in pay for the profession until years after. Now Nurse Practitioners are going through this, in the next few years all NPs will need a doctorate in order to practice (phasing out MSN programs in the next 5 years). Do you think their pay will increase now that they require more education? Probably not right away.

So is being a paramedic a job or a profession? Or more specifically is it really a medical profession?

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized high educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain"

"A profession has been further defined as: "a special type of occupation...(possessing) corporate solidarity...prolonged specialized training in a body of abstract knowledge, and a collectivity or service orientation"
 
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ChaseZ33 said:
That is the problem, paramedics are in no position to demand higher wages. Every other healthcare profession continues to move forward and raise their standards of education on their own accord. Nurses are now requiring bachelors, RT need bachelors and some masters. OT/PT now need their masters and doctorates to practice. I know you can say the current pay does not justify getting a higher degree but you can not demand higher pay without it. The education must come first. Its how most professions work.

Just like nurses over the years from diploma to AD to BSN. Many nurses were getting BSNs when they first came out but did not see any increase in pay for the profession until years after. Now Nurse Practitioners are going through this, in the next few years all NPs will need a doctorate in order to practice (phasing out MSN programs in the next 5 years). Do you think their pay will increase now that they require more education? Probably not right away.

So is being a paramedic a job or a profession? Or more specifically is it really a medical profession?

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized high educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain"

"A profession has been further defined as: "a special type of occupation...(possessing) corporate solidarity...prolonged specialized training in a body of abstract knowledge, and a collectivity or service orientation"
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Wow... Just wow. This is what we have to deal with? Nursing students who are of the belief they are higher than a Paramedic. Look, it's a profession. I have continuing education, and a college degree. As of the next two years, it becomes a mandatory degree program to take your NREMT and the majority of programs in the nation now are through an accredited college requiring an Associate's degree.

Until we demand higher wages, people aren't going to pay $15,000 to become paramedic when they can walk into Jiffy Lube off the street and make more money changing oil. People with your mindset are exactly what's wrong with the profession.
 
I really don't understand what the deal is. if your making 17 bucks an hour with two 24hr shifts and 8 ours of OT ur making 45k a year. If your running the full 24 hrs then yes that sucks.. But around where I live these guys are making 49k a year working 2-3 shifts a week. 102 shifts a year and sleep 10-8hrs a day.

Even working for a private company I`ve seen this is possible haha. Nurses get paid good money but i`d get sick of having to be at the same location for 12 hrs a day. This is why i do not want a office job. The only way i`d become a nurse is if I get hurt/old or I want to be on a Bird.

The only down side of working private is that you do not get all the city or state pensions. Which in FL that going away or will be going away as states can not afford it. A lot of private companies do however provide 401k and if its a big enough company your health Plans are better then most normal jiffy lubes.

AMR down here pays 9$ a hour for emts... How can anyone afford to live off that. Problem is.. 2-3 years ago you could work at amr for 9 bucks an hr because chances are in 5-8mos u would be picked up. Or it was good to work there p/t while going through fire or medic school like I did.
 
NomexMedic said:
Very simple. Until paramedics can learn to work together to demand higher wages from their employers for their skillset, then we are doomed to fail. Everyone is afraid of the word union, but it's worked for the nurses and the firefighters and it should work for us.
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What skill set? Being able to put in an IV and blindly give a few medications because the magic protocol book says so?

What do we have to offer that allows us to beg for higher compensation?

Does EMS need a union? Sure. But having a union doesn't mean you automatically get better pay and benefits. You can't expect more without giving more in return.

The nursing analogy was used earlier. Nurses have an incredibly strong union. And nursing pay has dramatically increased over the last 40 years. My mother-in-law was a diploma nurse during this time. Nursing has gone from a diploma nurse (this is not an ADN) as the standard, to a BSN as the up and coming standard. How has EMS improved in the last 40 years? Oh, wait... We can call heart alerts now... The amount of self-worth EMTs and Paramedics have is mind-boggling.

Maybe once we start advancing ourselves, we can advance our pay. Unfortunately, I don't see this happening any time in the near future. That's one of the reasons I, along with many other very competent providers, will be advancing to a different field that can compensate and advance itself. Sad, but reality.
 
NomexMedic said:
Wow... Just wow. This is what we have to deal with? Nursing students who are of the belief they are higher than a Paramedic. Look, it's a profession. I have continuing education, and a college degree. As of the next two years, it becomes a mandatory degree program to take your NREMT and the majority of programs in the nation now are through an accredited college requiring an Associate's degree.

Until we demand higher wages, people aren't going to pay $15,000 to become paramedic when they can walk into Jiffy Lube off the street and make more money changing oil. People with your mindset are exactly what's wrong with the profession.
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I never said anything about nurses being better that a paramedic. The topic is why paramedics are paid so little, specifically compared to other medical careers. Me being a nursing student has nothing to do with that. I am just trying to point out that the nursing profession had similar problem
In the past

It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. However I don't see anyone paying more for a job with the hopes that they will eventually get more education to justify it. It's something that has to happen internally within the profession.
 
NomexMedic said:
Until we demand higher wages, people aren't going to pay $15,000 to become paramedic when they can walk into Jiffy Lube off the street and make more money changing oil. People with your mindset are exactly what's wrong with the profession.
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No I think people with your mindset are exactly what is wrong with the profession. :rolleyes:
 
atropine said:
I know about 200 medics that make over 100k a year, thats not low.
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But is that with a fire department? I know paramedic/FF around
here start off at $70k.
 
It is when you live in Cali...

LA City fire if I'm not mistaken?
 
yeah it's fire, the past four years I have not made less than 120k, but Iam going probably call it quits in another year or so.
 
atropine said:
yeah it's fire, the past four years I have not made less than 120k, but Iam going probably call it quits in another year or so.
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I think fire based pay scales should be taken with a grain of salt or just left out of the debate. There is such a huge difference in pay between non fire and fire, plus there are way fewer jobs.


Ya I know a few RNs that work as VA travel nurse and make over $100k a year but that doesn't really have much to do with the average pay of a nurse at a hospital where a vast majority of the jobs are.
 
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