Why are Paramedics paid so little?

[Hunter]

No I think people with your mindset are exactly what is wrong with the profession.

I never said anything about nurses being better that a paramedic. The topic is why paramedics are paid so little, specifically compared to other medical careers. Me being a nursing student has nothing to do with that. I am just trying to point out that the nursing profession had similar problem
In the past

It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. However I don't see anyone paying more for a job with the hopes that they will eventually get more education to justify it. It's something that has to happen internally within the profession.

You're both half right and half wrong. We do need to demand higher pay, the only way to do that is by making ourselves more valuable, and you so that by making it harder to get an Emt\paramedic licensure by raising education.

 

[JakeEMTP]

Wow... Just wow. This is what we have to deal with? Nursing students who are of the belief they are higher than a Paramedic. Look, it's a profession. I have continuing education, and a college degree.

Until we demand higher wages, people aren't going to pay $15,000 to become paramedic when they can walk into Jiffy Lube off the street and make more money changing oil. People with your mindset are exactly what's wrong with the profession.

Please provide the information that the NREMT is making a 2 year degree mandatory. In fact, some states are fighting the accreditation part and may go back to giving their own state test. Also, nothing says that a votech or private trade school can not become accredited.

What is your degree in?

As far as the union stuff, per the national statistics, only 19% of the nurses belong to a union. Right now 50% of the RNs in the US have a BSN. By 2020 the goal is to be 80% with BSN degrees.

Over 62% of the fire fighters are union and probably more than half are Paramedics. The other 38% are volunteer firefighters. Chances are any Paramedic who works for a city or county will belong to a union which also raises the number higher. There are also several private companies which have union representation. So there is a large union presence in EMS. According to the stats only 20% of the Paramedics hold any type of degree and it may be in something else like nursing, fire science or accounting.

For your Jiffy Lube comment, make sure you know something about a profession before you try to cut it down. You made an assumption they are grease monkeys without an education. The Jiffy Lube Technicians are ASE Certified which makes the NREMT exams look like a cake walk. Many Technicians will be graduates of votech program which could be 24 months including a college degree. There are different tests. After passing at least one exam and providing proof of two years of relevant work experience, the test-taker becomes ASE certified. Doesn't exactly sound like some of the zero to hero Paramedic programs which are now in existence. To remain certified, ASE-certified professionals must be retested every five years. Imagine if you had to retake the NREMT every 5 years in addition to getting CEs.

 

[Tigger]

That is the problem, paramedics are in no position to demand higher wages. Every other healthcare profession continues to move forward and raise their standards of education on their own accord. Nurses are now requiring bachelors, RT need bachelors and some masters. OT/PT now need their masters and doctorates to practice. I know you can say the current pay does not justify getting a higher degree but you can not demand higher pay without it. The education must come first. Its how most professions work.

Just like nurses over the years from diploma to AD to BSN. Many nurses were getting BSNs when they first came out but did not see any increase in pay for the profession until years after. Now Nurse Practitioners are going through this, in the next few years all NPs will need a doctorate in order to practice (phasing out MSN programs in the next 5 years). Do you think their pay will increase now that they require more education? Probably not right away.

So is being a paramedic a job or a profession? Or more specifically is it really a medical profession?

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized high educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain"

"A profession has been further defined as: "a special type of occupation...(possessing) corporate solidarity...prolonged specialized training in a body of abstract knowledge, and a collectivity or service orientation"

I could not agree more with this post. Look at the countries where paramedics are respected and paid well and you'll find that they're education is far and away superior to that of the US model.

So many are quick to bemoan comparisons between nursing and EMS, and I agree that it's fairly apple to oranges. A paramedic and nurse have fundamentally different roles, and fundamentally different skills. To me, it just seems backwards that even the best paramedic programs only take a year or so (plus prereqs), yet their scope of practice is far larger than that of nursing.

 

[JakeEMTP]

I think fire based pay scales should be taken with a grain of salt or just left out of the debate. There is such a huge difference in pay between non fire and fire, plus there are way fewer jobs.


Ya I know a few RNs that work as VA travel nurse and make over $100k a year but that doesn't really have much to do with the average pay of a nurse at a hospital where a vast majority of the jobs are.

Fire is required to be proficent in 2 vastly different skill sets. Anyone who does this should be paid more. Also, I would say Fire service Paramedics make up a signicant number so they can not be ignored.

It is easy for RNs to make over $100k if they live in NY, CA or MA. Just like the areas Atropine lives in, $75K is probably considered at the poverty level. But, for EMTs, in those areas they are mass produced in 3 week mills. Everybody in that part of the country is an EMT from movie stars, rock stars to the person serving you your Big Mac.

 

[VFlutter]

Fire is required to be proficent in 2 vastly different skill sets. Anyone who does this should be paid more. Also, I would say Fire service Paramedics make up a signicant number so they can not be ignored.

I agree, I did not mean that they should
Be ignored. However saying paramedics are paid great because a medic/FF and make $100k a year is not really an argument because as you said they are paid for doing two jobs. Just talking about the statistics if you added all the medics and medic/FF together and averaged out their salaries it would be misleading since the average would be much higher.

 

[Shishkabob]

Fire is required to be proficent in 2 vastly different skill sets.

I think we need to clearly define "proficient"... because you and I apparently have 2 different views on that.

 

[JakeEMTP]

I agree, I did not mean that they should
Be ignored. However saying paramedics are paid great because a medic/FF and make $100k a year is not really an argument because as you said they are paid for doing two jobs. Just talking about the statistics if you added all the medics and medic/FF together and averaged out their salaries it would be misleading since the average would be much higher.

If the FF/Paramedic was in TN, they might make $50k while the private Paramedics might make $40k - $45k

In some of the areas like where Atropine is or in the SF Bay area, the FF Paramedic may make $100k and the private $75k - $85k. RNs in the area do most of the CCTs so it is difficult to get a good comparison across the board because of the cost of living and the make up of the state's EMS and ALS transport services.

In other states Paramedics might also do CCT transport with private companies and be paid a little more but with basically the same base Paramedic education.

 

[atropine]

In other states Paramedics might also do CCT transport with private companies and be paid a little more but with basically the same base Paramedic education.[/QUOTE]

That's right in Tulsa when I worked for EMSA they gave you a little extra to operate med pumps, there were no RN rigs like they have here in Cali, but because of the weather you couldn't pay me enough to live in the midwest, I'd rather be homless in sunny Cali anyday of the week.

 

[crashh]

my next step after medic is nursing school...should I be thinking about a bachelors?

 

[STXmedic]

Yes. If you have the ability to go BScN, do it.

 

[VFlutter]

my next step after medic is nursing school...should I be thinking about a bachelors?

Yes, most hospitals will only hire BSN new grads now

 

[NomexMedic]

What skill set? Being able to put in an IV and blindly give a few medications because the magic protocol book says so?

What do we have to offer that allows us to beg for higher compensation?

I apologize good sir. I didn't realize you were from a state where Paramedics operate out of a cook book and aren't allowed to think for themselves. Over here in Tennessee, we actually practice and are good at what we do. Maybe you should try it sometime.

I never said anything about nurses being better that a paramedic. The topic is why paramedics are paid so little, specifically compared to other medical careers. Me being a nursing student has nothing to do with that. I am just trying to point out that the nursing profession had similar problem
In the past

It's just my opinion. Take it for what it's worth. However I don't see anyone paying more for a job with the hopes that they will eventually get more education to justify it. It's something that has to happen internally within the profession.

Sorry if I came off crude to you, however it the mentality that is portrayed agitates me very much and it's all over this industry. This, along with the general laziness of most in our field is why we are held back so badly and why we can't advance. Everyone wants something for nothing.

 

[STXmedic]

I apologize good sir. I didn't realize you were from a state where Paramedics operate out of a cook book and aren't allowed to think for themselves. Over here in Tennessee, we actually practice and are good at what we do. Maybe you should try it sometime.

LOL! Oh the irony. Texas is actually one of the most progressive states for EMS. Thanks to medical directors in our state having the ability to set their own non-state regulated protocols, there are MANY systems here (mine included) that are allowed a tremendous amount of free reign. Almost too much. We're not bound by a half-*** Tennessee Statewide Guideline.

 

[JakeEMTP]

I apologize good sir. I didn't realize you were from a state where Paramedics operate out of a cook book and aren't allowed to think for themselves. Over here in Tennessee, we actually practice and are good at what we do. Maybe you should try it sometime.

The protocols of TN don't look any different except for telling you exactly how to transport a patient like giving you permission to transport in a non emergency mode if the condition of the patient warrants it. In fact, your protocols explains everything out in the most minute detail to not leave anything out or to guess. You must also call Med Control for ANY deviation of the standing orders or protocols. Your state also allows for FDs to have their own Paramedic schools and break away from the colleges.

Sorry if I came off crude to you, however it the mentality that is portrayed agitates me very much and it's all over this industry. This, along with the general laziness of most in our field is why we are held back so badly and why we can't advance. Everyone wants something for nothing.

Having a union do all the talking for you is the easy way out. Getting an education is alittle harder. Having a union fight to keep the education standards low so you don't have to extend yourself learning is the lazy way.

 

[JakeEMTP]

LOL! Oh the irony. Texas is actually one of the most progressive states for EMS. Thanks to medical directors in our state having the ability to set their own non-state regulated protocols, there are MANY systems here (mine included) that are allowed a tremendous amount of free reign. Almost too much. We're not bound by a half-*** Tennessee Statewide Guideline.

Yet, Texas only requires just over 600 hours of training for its Paramedics. I think TX was the poster child for how not to do RSI.

None of the states in the US have much to brag about. If any company wants to raise the bar to be more picky about who they hire like nursing has, they can always fight it through a union or scaring the agency into believing using the education card is discrimination.

 

[STXmedic]

Thus the "almost too much"

 

[Shishkabob]

Yet, Texas only requires just over 600 hours of training for its Paramedics. I think TX was the poster child for how not to do RSI.

Minimum != average.
Minimum != the norm.
Minimum != the expected.


Infact, I can't point to a single program in the state that does the minimum. One infamous one comes close, but still exceeds it, and even then I know a portion of people from there won't get hired by any of the more progressive agencies without actually proving knowledge.

 

[Tigger]

my next step after medic is nursing school...should I be thinking about a bachelors?

And maybe possibly think about getting a BSN first, it'll make getting your medic a snap I'd think. That's my plan at least, I'm shooting for PA or eventually ending up as a CEN, and from there I wouldn't mind be backing on the ambulance part time if possible.

 

[epipusher]

Puppy mill type programs.

 

[JPINFV]

Minimum != average.
Minimum != the norm.
Minimum != the expected.

For EMS... yes. How often is the standard people are held to is the bare minimum in thought, and anyone who acts different is the "dangerous" one. Somehow I doubt that Texas is any different from other states in that regard.