What is a 24 hour shift worth?

phideux

Forum Captain
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Here we have 8s, 12s and 24s.
The 8hr crews work 5 days/wk = 40hrs
12hr crews work 4 days/wk =40hrs + 8hrs OT
24hr crews work 2 days/wk =40hrs + 8hrs OT
Everyone gets the same hourly wage for their position, EMT vs Medic.
The 24hr crews do Kelly days to eliminate that odd 3 day week.

Sometimes the shift is hectic, you learn to take quick naps between calls, or yesterdays shift we had a call at 1600hrs, next call didn't come through until 0605hrs, this is my Kelly week, start of my 5 day weekend, and I got a good nights sleep at work. :cool::cool:
 

WuLabsWuTecH

Forum Deputy Chief
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A lot of the private companies around here do the same thing. Because you get so much overtime, they pay you a lower hourly wage. I never went for that as I thought it was BS, so I stayed on the day trucks. But when I worked overtime to cover for the 24 hour guys, I see why management did what they did as my paycheck went through the roof during those pay periods!

It worked out that those who worked 24's earned just bit more than those on day trucks, but they also did just a bit more work since after 8pm the run volume went way down.

In my current system, the paid guys make 20 hours of wages out of a 24, and since they have Kelley Days, that works out to an even 40 hours a week. But they essentially chose this. they are 6a-6a, and unless they take a run after 2am, they don't get paid for those last 4 hours (if they do take a run, they get paid for the full 4 hours regardless of how long the run took). They guys chose this because most of them like going out to lunch or dinner or having some free time, and after station duties are done and chief's TO-DO list is done, their time is theirs. So for up to 4 hours a day, they are treated like volunteer members and just have to stay within 5 minutes of the station. Most people take an hour for lunch and a few hours in the evening to go home to their families for dinner, but one guy stays at the station until 2am, and then goes home and will sleep there so he doesn't have to get up at 6am to go home and then go back to bed.

But of course our run district is very rural with about 2-3 calls/day/truck
 

medictinysc

Forum Crew Member
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I have just never heard of any other job where the more you hours work the less money you make, maybe I'm just ignorant.

I also work for a company where the more hours you are scheduled the less u get paid. I have thankfully recieved all pay raises and bonuses but it still pains me to know that my time is worth less than my 12 hrs partners
 

Summit

Critical Crazy
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Earn Money Sleeping. Seriously, what do you expect?

If you work 24s or 48s the expectation is that you are low utilization, particularly at night. If you are high utilization, your workplace is unsafe. If you are low utilization at night, why should you receive equal pay if you can sleep/watch a movie? What economic argument can you make?
 
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NYMedic828

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I get paid the same wage no matter how I choose to work my hours. (excluding overtime)

I work 2 day shifts (9-6) and 2 night shifts (6-9) roughly every week. I can make those into two, 24 hour shifts so I have to come in to work less by doing a mutual exchange with a co-worker so that I work my morning and his night, and he works my night and his morning giving us both a 24 hour day.

Pay works out same either way.
 
OP
OP
Tigger

Tigger

Dodges Pucks
Community Leader
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Earn Money Sleeping. Seriously, what do you expect?

If you work 24s or 48s the expectation is that you are low utilization, particularly at night. If you are high utilization, your workplace is unsafe. If you are low utilization at night, why should you receive equal pay if you can sleep/watch a movie? What economic argument can you make?

If that's the case shouldn't I be paid more during the day when the utilization rate is high? I make like 50 cents over minimum wage so they can't pay me less at night...
 

NYMedic828

Forum Deputy Chief
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If that's the case shouldn't I be paid more during the day when the utilization rate is high? I make like 50 cents over minimum wage so they can't pay me less at night...

Now that I think about it, in NYC EMS actually makes more overnight than during the day. I forget the exact hours but from like 8pm to 8am maybe? You get a 12% increase. But FDNY EMS does not let you do 24s. You can only do 16s. So your work week could be either 5 days of 8 hours or 16/16/8 off off off, 16/16/8, off off off off and repeat.
 

46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
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I was sold on the idea of 24 hour shifts, the benefits being more days home from work, and the chance of sleeping at work while on the clock, which frees up even more time at home. I thought that the opportunity to sleep at work would mitigate the 16 hour increase per week. My first taste of 24's was on a 24/48 work schedule (56 hours/week), no kellys, EMS Third Service, on busy units, with frequent mandatory holdover. At my current department, which is fire based, it's the same hours, just structured differently, where we work on/off/on/off/on/off x 4 days. My first full time EMS job was hospital based, NYC, which has a mandatory 16 hour cap on consecutive hours worked in a 24 hour period. I've worked 12x2/8/2, and 16/12x2 for a 40 hour week. This is what I've discovered:

A 40 hour week (give or take) where you're showing up to work every day is preferable for someone who doesn't need to do any OT, someone who doesn't do well with broken sleep, or someone who wants to take traditional college classes (not asynchronous distance learning).

If you're going to do 24's, you're typically going to get paid at a lower rate than a 40 hour employee (day work) in most places. This can work to your advantage only if you're fire based and receive FLSA; otherwise, you're getting the bone. With FLSA, the employee gets paid straight time on 53 out of 56 work hours/week, or more specifically, over 212 hours every four weeks. If two systems, one fire based, and one EMS only, each pay $40k/ yr,, the fire employee will make a little more than $13.25/yr, and the EMS employee will make only $12/hr. The fire employee's OT rate will be abut $2/hr more than the EMS employee's rate, even though their base pay is the same. My fire department, and probably all the others, will quote that $40k as the base, with the FLSA (3 hours OT per week average) as a bonus. That now makes the fire employee's base rate $13.73/hr, $20.59/hr OT rate ($2.59 more than EMS), for a true base rate of $41070/yr. In my system, if we do OT, that is immediately paid at 1.5 time, and those hours also count towards FLSA. So, if I do 24 hours of OT, 24 more hours of my regular hours are OT, so that's essentially 12 extra hours of straight pay at the end of the four week cycle.

I thought that working 24's, even on a 56 hour schedule, would give me more time off duty for family, activities, etc. What really happened is that I would get up a few times a night, spend half the next day recovering, and then have to go back to work the next day. There's also the joy of being up much of the night, and then being held over for an additional 12-24 hours. It's nearly impossible to take traditional college classes due to rotating shift work, unless you can get the time off, or do a bunch of exchanges. Forced mandatory OT, not getting leave approved, or not getting the exchanges you need, can get you thrown out of a program due to absences. You also have to much of your leave, that can't be used for R&R, and co-workers expect you to pay back your exchanges, often at the most inopportune times. I'm basically restricted to doing most if not all of my coursework through asynchronous distance learning. Any degrees that require my regular physical presence are out of the question.

Reduction of hourly rate for shift work is a huge scam that works in favor of the employees, particularly for the 56 hour/week people. For every five employees hired, the employer saves on pay, benefits, retirement, hiring, and training on two additional employees (56x5 = 40x7). They're saving a bunch by using 56 hour employees (140% more hours worked than the 40 hour employee), so the lower pay is not justified. IIRC, a 56 hour employee, over 25 years, works the equivalent of 33.75 40 hour work years. That's pension savings for the employer, paying out at 25 years, but really paying out after 33.75 years. Think about that for a minute. Don't get me started on the pay-on-call issue for the overnight hours. If you're not in your own bed at home, you're working, and should be paid your regular rate. If you are home, and on call, then you need to at least get an hourly stipend.
 

46Young

Level 25 EMS Wizard
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Now that I think about it, in NYC EMS actually makes more overnight than during the day. I forget the exact hours but from like 8pm to 8am maybe? You get a 12% increase. But FDNY EMS does not let you do 24s. You can only do 16s. So your work week could be either 5 days of 8 hours or 16/16/8 off off off, 16/16/8, off off off off and repeat.

I guess you made it out of the Rock, and off the FDNY EMS meat wagon! Congrats!
 

Wheel

Forum Asst. Chief
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Earn Money Sleeping. Seriously, what do you expect?

If you work 24s or 48s the expectation is that you are low utilization, particularly at night. If you are high utilization, your workplace is unsafe. If you are low utilization at night, why should you receive equal pay if you can sleep/watch a movie? What economic argument can you make?

Except if things get crazy and you don't sleep, they still expect you to run calls. They won't say "hey, you're too busy tonight. You should go home."
 

Summit

Critical Crazy
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Yes some nights are busy. The pay is based on average expectations in services with fixed rates.

Some services simply don't pay for 8 hours of the 24 except hours worked (but have higher hourly rates compared to other services).

The reason NYC EMS or Denver Paramedics or any high utilization service has a higher pay rate at night is because it is a less desirable shift, but then they aren't working 24s because that would be patently unsafe, so they work 8s, 10s, 12s, 14s. Similarly RNs work 8s and 12s but get extra pay if they work nights.

Arguably there is good reason to not have 48 or 24 hour shifts.

Semi truck drivers are far more regulated in the hours they can work than EMS and they aren't driving code 3 or caring for patients. There are plenty of services that run 24s and 48s that really shouldn't, but it is cheaper and easier for mangement to do it plus employees consider the schedule a benefit and tolerate the lack of safety for themselves, their patients, and the public.
 

Wheel

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Yes some nights are busy. The pay is based on average expectations in services with fixed rates.

Some services simply don't pay for 8 hours of the 24 except hours worked (but have higher hourly rates compared to other services).

The reason NYC EMS or Denver Paramedics or any high utilization service has a higher pay rate at night is because it is a less desirable shift, but then they aren't working 24s because that would be patently unsafe, so they work 8s, 10s, 12s, 14s. Similarly RNs work 8s and 12s but get extra pay if they work nights.

Arguably there is good reason to not have 48 or 24 hour shifts.

Semi truck drivers are far more regulated in the hours they can work than EMS and they aren't driving code 3 or caring for patients. There are plenty of services that run 24s and 48s that really shouldn't, but it is cheaper and easier for mangement to do it plus employees consider the schedule a benefit and tolerate the lack of safety for themselves, their patients, and the public.

I absolutely agree there.
 

NYMedic828

Forum Deputy Chief
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I guess you made it out of the Rock, and off the FDNY EMS meat wagon! Congrats!

^_^

Yea, about a month and a half ago now. Loving it.

Funny thing is, I do more EMS runs now on a daily basis than I did as a medic.
 

jlw

Dirty cot jockey
42
1
8
I can't wait to finish Medic class this year and get out of my current private company. They don't believe that the wheels should be permitted to stop turning. We do 24 hour shifts, we get on the truck at 7am and roll out, we run stacked runs until 7am the next day.

Often times we get dispatched to the next run while we are still transporting on the previous run, there have been a few times were we call on scene and they advise us of our next call pending to rush us along. Its a terrible system.

The last shift I worked we put 536 miles on our rig and never left the area, just hopping runs solid. :glare:
 

RocketMedic

Californian, Lost in Texas
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I can't wait to finish Medic class this year and get out of my current private company. They don't believe that the wheels should be permitted to stop turning. We do 24 hour shifts, we get on the truck at 7am and roll out, we run stacked runs until 7am the next day.

Often times we get dispatched to the next run while we are still transporting on the previous run, there have been a few times were we call on scene and they advise us of our next call pending to rush us along. Its a terrible system.

The last shift I worked we put 536 miles on our rig and never left the area, just hopping runs solid. :glare:

What hellhole is this?
 

Dwindlin

Forum Captain
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Oh, I completely agree that if a station crew is running like a day crew than they should get paid like it. Also, yes, running 20+ hours/day is unsafe. Now if only I can convince gen surg that having their students up 30+ hours straight is unsafe as well.

I'll take 30+ hour call any day of the week. It is so much better than night float.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
12,681
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I'll take 30+ hour call any day of the week. It is so much better than night float.
Both are better than the inpatient family med teams schedule. 8a-8pm, day of rounds/floor work (no admits, go home when done with your patients), then either 2 10a-11p or 2 8p-8a (plus FM cross coverage) shifts followed by a day off. No better way to kill a circadian rhythm.
 
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