Some sobering stats.......

[Wingnut]

The whole problem boils down to the fact that some people can be trusted with guns and some can't. I can understand wanting to carry one on the rig, but some people just are not responsible enough to handle it.

 

[Ridryder911]

I agree, weapons have no place on rigs... even as a licensed & bonded officer.. you won't see me carrry one either. Sorry I am a medic not a cop.. I could see the charges now from the D.A... as well as letigation from the family suing you.. I am sure your EMS inurance & city or company attorney does not know about carrying a wepon unles, you are supposed to (i.e tactical EMS etc..) . Do you have a policy to carry one with mandatory certifying you & is you & your service bonded ?

Don't buy the "don't have time to lock it up".. he doesn't have a gun lock & maybe a lockbox to place in his trunk ?...

Our policy is short & sweet.. no weapons.. you have one on you, automatic dismissal. no questions or arguements...

Be sfe,
Ridryder911

 

[DT4EMS]

Let me make a point........

I chose to no longer carry a firearm on an ambulance several years ago. Because of the car-jacking incident. I too looked at it from a legal standpoint. With that same decision I chose to work in areas that I didn't work at the PD.

There are some places that "overlook" the fact some of their medics are armed.

There are places that allow/issue their medics handcuffs. I don't think that is a good idea, but that is what they do. I think if you are having to handcuff a person, LEO should be the ones doing it. A ton of lawsits come in law enforcement of "handcuffing".

Some places issue OC/Mace and expandable batons. Again that is up to that particular service. I think there should be training an policies in place if a service choses to go that route.

To summarize:

1) I do not carry a gun on an abmulance while working in EMS.

2) I do not want people going onto scenes they KNOW are unsafe.

3) On an ambulace I act as a medic. I don't go onto KNOWN unsafe scenes, and I don't overstep my bounds. Just like when I am in my police role, I don't offer to help one of the guys with an IV or anything ALS. I will do BLS that was requested.

4) In the DT4EMS course we teach recognition, prevention, and if you have to ESCAPE. Nothing aggressive. The only takedowns we teach are when you or your partner have been grabbed!

5) I believe EMS should be seen as a care provider and not confused with LEO. That is why I have a section about uniform confusion. There are some services that wear uniforms that closely resemble law enforcement.

6) The GOAL of DT4EMS is "To prevent at least one assault" that means assaults on providers as well as patients. When you educate people on what an assault is and actually teach them the LAW they are less likely to assault a patient.

All of our defense techniques begin whith getting you hands up and open. This way you turn bystanders into witnesses. Plus how can someone say you were attacking them if your hands are up and open. You can't hold onto someone with your hands up and open.

Please don't confuse an attacker with an uncooperative patient in these threads. I see a lot of problems with that. People may confuse the point thinking I am advocating force against an uncooperative patient. That is not the fact at all. We have a section to cover the law in "Use of force in medical restraint". There is a law about that and we teach about it.

I hope this celars up some confusion about what I believe and what I stand for.

 

[asysin2leads]

DT4EMS, I think you should add a part to your course about "The difference between carrying your personal firearm on you when you are at home, and when you are working for a service with insurance and regulations and whatnot." People seem to be missing that fact. I think its interesting their are people who have less of a problem with carrying a firearm while working EMS than they have with administering narcotics to those who need them. Guns...ok. Pain meds...Bad. Some real interesting medicine you're practicing there.

 

[MMiz]

What about in a rural setting when there is no backup available?

One of the guys I work with, a FF/EMT/LEO, a 40+ y/o responsible father, is as far away from the whacker stance one can possibly be. Where he lives there is one officer working the one squad car the small town has. Backup is 20+ minutes away when available.

He's been called several times while working the ambulance to respond as backup for a local officer. He'll respond, park his ambulance a ways away, and approach the scene on foot. Is this legal by the book? Maybe not. Is this the best solution? Probably not. Is this a reality of living in a rural area where PD aren't always available. I think so.

This is the same guy that does it by the books. He'll park the ambulance in a real spot instead of parking right in front of a business. He'll REALLY wash and clean the rig after every shift. He'll document the heck out of a patient. He's been doing this for 20+ years, he's not here anymore for the whacker status or lights and sirens, he's here because he loves EMS. His car, even as a volunteer FF and PD doesn't have a lightbar on it. He's just a normal guy that at one point carried a gun because of the reality of rural EMS. Is that the wrong decision?

 

[ffemt8978]

Originally posted by asysin2leads@Aug 13 2005, 10:08 PM
DT4EMS, I think you should add a part to your course about "The difference between carrying your personal firearm on you when you are at home, and when you are working for a service with insurance and regulations and whatnot."

Actually, I understood the difference quite well. I just wanted to know what made you think it was illegal. Regulations and laws are two completely different things.

I think its interesting their are people who have less of a problem with carrying a firearm while working EMS than they have with administering narcotics to those who need them.

I agree with you about this point, and it is indeed a sad state of affairs that people in EMS should even have to consider carrying a firearm for protection. The patient should be our secondary concern, right after our own safety.

 

[Ridryder911]

I thought this topic was interesting enough I discussed it with a friend of mine who is a assistant district attorney. He forewarned about carrying a weapon, unless your purpose of the job, the scope of training is is included for this .. i.e EMT tactical or Police/Security EMS in which you have dual roles.

Carrying a concealed weapon is of course according to local State & local laws. But he forewarns that even having a weapon may be interperted as pre-intent. The normal work enviroment of others in the same situation (i.e. normal for EMS, other Rescuers to carry weapons) would be considered that it was part of that person job duties. He strongly advised against it, seeking other alternatives to prevent possible litigitaion & criminal proscution could follow.

Be safe,
Ridryder 911

 

[rescuecpt]

Originally posted by asysin2leads@Aug 14 2005, 12:08 AM
I think its interesting their are people who have less of a problem with carrying a firearm while working EMS than they have with administering narcotics to those who need them. Guns...ok. Pain meds...Bad. Some real interesting medicine you're practicing there.

Hope you're not referring to me. I give narcs, never said I didn't. I actually ask for them whenever the protocol is met. But since they are a controlled substance, I can't just give them whenever I want, I have to get the MD to give me an order. And that doesn't happen often. Not my fault, I'm not about to lie to medical control to get an order for narcs. That's plain stupid.

 

[Luno]

Okay, well, since I guess I'm the subject of this firestorm, I'll poke my head up again, asysin2leads, I'll tell you that I was an idealist like you apparently are, and I thought along the same lines, never enter a scene that wasn't safe, weapons have no business on rigs, etc.... Then reality hit me, unfortunately, but none the less. Bounties on EMS heads, being shot at, not around the gunfire, but being shot at. Working for a private service that provides 911 response with FD support, and having the FDs having ballistic vests, and you're supposed to hide behind that star of life on your shoulder? Having to take down crackheads because they're taking it to the cops, are you just going to stand there, and let the guys you work with daily get it taken to them? Sorry, if I offend your view of EMS, but there was a saying in the crews, incidently stolen from PD and SOCOM, 1*. Live by it, or die without it. I'd probably agree with you, 99% of the time, weapons have no business being on the rigs. 99% of the EMTs whether B/I/P have no business carrying a weapon, and are probably more of a danger to the people standing next to them on the range then they are to the assaulter standing in front of them. I don't know you, and as such won't assume that you know more or less about physical attacks than I do. As such, I won't judge your judgement, and I don't know where your stations are, but I will say, that I wasn't the only one to carry a weapon, when someone breaks into your station, with their buddy who's bleeding out, and points a weapon at you, and says "save him," I'm not the one who's going to tell other people whose *** is on the line, don't protect yourself. We can go into semantics about 21ft, draw times, point shooting, etc... if you'd like, but the reality is if that is what helps you get through the shift, and you go home to your family, tell me how driving home, vs. being driven in a box is wrong. I have learned through the years that there are no absolutes in life, and I hesistate to draw those lines, and I probably feel closer to your point of view than you know, but there are always exceptions.

 

[Luno]

Let me also state that I don't advocate carrying a weapon on a rig, but if you do, there are many things that need to be taken into consideration.

1. Can I do this safely?
2. Will this negatively affect my ability to do my job?
3. If you doing it without "approval" (which we were not) what will happen if you are found out?
4. Can you take another human's life?

These are all questions that you need to answer before you decide whether or not you are going to carry. After you answer all of those, and if you still decide to carry, you have to answer the following.

1. Can I do this safely?
2. Is this going to be effective, and in what circumstances will this be effective, if any?
3. If I get into a physical altercation, will it "fall out?" If so, why? If not, why?
4. Do I take enough risk that this will make a difference?

Now skipping ahead, past all the threat assessment, weapon and calibre size BS, everyday, you put a weapon on, you need to ask yourself.

1. Can I do this safely?
2. What keeps my weapon out of someone elses hands and being used against me?
3. Does my partner know?
4. Can I trust my partner to do what needs to be done, if I can't, and are they aware of the extra risks that are taken by having a weapon in the rig?
5. As an EMT, whose job it is to save lives, can I take another human's life? Because if you can't, leave it in the safe, it will get you killed.
6. Do I have the training where I feel competant, when/if I have to use it?
7. Do I have the repetitions to do what I need to, when the adrenaline dump hits?
8. Why am I doing this?

I'm not a fan of every EMT being armed, but then again, I'm not a huge fan of most cops having a weapon either. Unfortunately, in certain circumstances, I do feel that certain steps are needed. And I'm not going to go into LTL weapons, and such, because I feel that if you/my life is endangered, the threat must be stopped, and while a handgun in woefully inadequate for the job, it's the best tool at hand.

And I'll take that "weekend warrior wannabe" statement in the ignorance in which it was given.

 

[rescuejew]

LUNO: I stick with riding the fence on the gun argument, but I think I posted earlier in this particular forum stating that I would do whatever I have to do to someone else if they have me backed in a corner, to get home. I, like you, have been shot AT, assaulted, threatened. Most of us here carry knives that we term "seat-belt-cutters" because in NC, it is illegal for us to be "armed".

There are ways to defend oneself and I'm not sure how I feel about carrying concealed, but I do know this, if it came down between me and some hoodrat, he better come correct, because he'll be in for the fight of his life. I WILL go home relatively the same way I went to work. Good for you Luno for sticking to your guns, no pun intended.

I think this forum is intended to share opinions, not provoke arguments over who's right...or am I assuming incorrectly???

 

[Luno]

Rescue, I'm not here to argue rights to self-protection, or otherwise, I've made my decision, and I'm not adverse to discussing why. The reality of it though is that it is a personal decision. The decision to carry a weapon shouldn't be taken on lightly, if you have a doubt, don't do it. It's that cut and dry, if you decide to, then know why you are, get the training, and practice. Realize that you are adding an additional variable into the mix. I won't be the poster child out there saying that they should, I will say that if you do, this is what you need to be aware of. I've seen too many people that shouldn't but that goes for all kinds of things, i.e. 300 lbs FFs who will need a rescue, just from walking past a set of stairs, cops whose guns have rusted into their holsters, or even worse that draw down on grandmothers, and we shouldn't even start on mall ninjas....... I think that by turning a blind eye to the fact that some do, allows the weekend warriors to introduce another potentially dangerous variable into a charged situation. If you are uncomfortable with one, then don't, and be proud, not on the fence, it's an individual decision, and your opinion is more valid to you, than 1000 of mine. I would recommend something along the lines of DT's course, because if you study the anatomy of an attack, it helps you deal with the moment when it occurs, but it sounds like you're doing great already. Stay safe -luke

 

[asysin2leads]

Originally posted by Luno@Aug 14 2005, 02:55 PM
Okay, well, since I guess I'm the subject of this firestorm, I'll poke my head up again, asysin2leads, I'll tell you that I was an idealist like you apparently are, and I thought along the same lines, never enter a scene that wasn't safe, weapons have no business on rigs, etc.... Then reality hit me, unfortunately, but none the less. Bounties on EMS heads, being shot at, not around the gunfire, but being shot at. Working for a private service that provides 911 response with FD support, and having the FDs having ballistic vests, and you're supposed to hide behind that star of life on your shoulder? Having to take down crackheads because they're taking it to the cops, are you just going to stand there, and let the guys you work with daily get it taken to them? Sorry, if I offend your view of EMS, but there was a saying in the crews, incidently stolen from PD and SOCOM, 1*. Live by it, or die without it. I'd probably agree with you, 99% of the time, weapons have no business being on the rigs. 99% of the EMTs whether B/I/P have no business carrying a weapon, and are probably more of a danger to the people standing next to them on the range then they are to the assaulter standing in front of them. I don't know you, and as such won't assume that you know more or less about physical attacks than I do. As such, I won't judge your judgement, and I don't know where your stations are, but I will say, that I wasn't the only one to carry a weapon, when someone breaks into your station, with their buddy who's bleeding out, and points a weapon at you, and says "save him," I'm not the one who's going to tell other people whose *** is on the line, don't protect yourself. We can go into semantics about 21ft, draw times, point shooting, etc... if you'd like, but the reality is if that is what helps you get through the shift, and you go home to your family, tell me how driving home, vs. being driven in a box is wrong. I have learned through the years that there are no absolutes in life, and I hesistate to draw those lines, and I probably feel closer to your point of view than you know, but there are always exceptions.

First off all, I am far from an idealist. Don't believe me and I'll show you the missing tooth I have from a psych patient who decided to use my face as a vehicle for their misguided anger. You live quite far from reality, as I know many people who have been shot at, even shot, and they don't carry guns. But I guess the world you live in is different from their's. Your attitude, your slogan's which sound like they came out of a cheesy Steven Seagal movie ("Live by it, or die by it", "Can you take another human being's life?" etc.) makes it perfectly clear that even if EMS providers were allowed to be armed, you, personally, would be the LAST guy I would want to have a firearm, as you present MORE of a danger to EMS providers out there then all of the gangbangers, crackheads, and liquored up trailer trash combined. You look forward to having a gun, you LIKE having a gun on you, because you think you have some kind of "warrior's code" going on. What a load of crap. Listen, just go become like an armed security guard, or sign up for the armed forces, or something, just stop bringing a bad name to my profession, all right? Because if you really feel that strongly about your beliefs about carrying a concealed firearm while you are working, I would LOVE to take it to your home state's certifying agency and see THEIR opinion on you running around half cocked with a handcannon on your ankle. I am sick and tired of nut jobs like you hiding behind dark sunglasses and ******** slogans, ready to get the people who make this profession great KILLED for their crap.

EDIT: for content

 

[Luno]

I stand behind what I said, you are an idealist, spend time at the other end of a barrel, then speak intelligently. Your claim to knowledge is you lost a tooth from some psyche? I understand that weapons are an emotionally charged issue with you. However, you have pontificated your opinions, yet fail to back them up with facts. I'm interested in exactly how far from reality I do live, as you seem to have an inside track. Perhaps your idealism still believes that we don't get shot at, we don't run in areas where there are bounties, or perhaps you just choose to ignore that. If you run in a major EMS city, then you've been there, and paid your dues. So do as you wish. If not, and someday, you'd like to run with an agency that services the scum of the earth, I'm sure I can set up a ride along. I'd be happy to show you how to subdue 240lbs man who is kicking the christ out of his mother. How to take down a crackhead who is taking it to two cops. Are there things out there that we shouldn't be involved in? Absolutely, do we have a choice sometimes? No. I would also say, as much as I disagree with you, and I would rue the day that you were appointed my partner, I wouldn't carry, for exactly the reasons I stated.

Oh, and about my "liking" to carry a gun? I do carry, why does that intimidate you? You are throwing around terms like "gun nut," "half-cocked," and "lack of common sense" as if you have a legitimate reason to doubt any of my qualification. "Can you take another human being's life?" Check with any certified LEO trainer, it's just a real consideration, how far from reality are you? And now I do carry, but it's just part of the job. There are no accidental shooting, but I guess that I'm just relieving the burden of ignorance for you. And finally about your profession? The day your signature is on my State or NR cert, you may lend some credibility to that, until that day, stay in your lane.

 

[asysin2leads]

Originally posted by Luno@Aug 15 2005, 01:45 AM
I stand behind what I said, you are an idealist, spend time at the other end of a barrel, then speak intelligently. Your claim to knowledge is you lost a tooth from some psyche? I understand that weapons are an emotionally charged issue with you. However, you have pontificated your opinions, yet fail to back them up with facts. I'm interested in exactly how far from reality I do live, as you seem to have an inside track. Perhaps your idealism still believes that we don't get shot at, we don't run in areas where there are bounties, or perhaps you just choose to ignore that. Your profile says NY, if it's the city, and you are FDNY EMS, my hat's off to you. If you run in a major EMS city, then you've been there, and paid your dues. So do as you wish. If not, and someday, you'd like to run with an agency that services the scum of the earth, I'm sure I can set up a ride along. I'd be happy to show you how to subdue 240lbs man who is kicking the christ out of his mother. How to take down a crackhead who is taking it to two cops. Are there things out there that we shouldn't be involved in? Absolutely, do we have a choice sometimes? No. I would also say, as much as I disagree with you, and I would rue the day that you were appointed my partner, I wouldn't carry, for exactly the reasons I stated.

Oh, and about my "liking" to carry a gun? I do carry, why does that intimidate you? You are throwing around terms like "gun nut," "half-cocked," and "lack of common sense" as if you have a legitimate reason to doubt any of my qualification. "Can you take another human being's life?" Check with any certified LEO trainer, it's just a real consideration, how far from reality are you? And now I do carry, but it's just part of the job. There are no accidental shooting, but I guess that I'm just relieving the burden of ignorance for you. And finally about your profession? The day your signature is on my State or NR cert, you may lend some credibility to that, until that day, stay in your lane.

The reason I use terms like "gun nut" and "half cocked" is because I have my doubts about anyone who uses action movie slogans to justify carrying a concealed weapon on board an ambulance. As for intimidation, please, I don't scare that easy, I'm too stupid. What BOTHERS me is the thought of you getting partnered up with some easily impressionable young EMT and feeding him your nonsense, and then subsequently reading about his and your untimely demise. In addition, I can't imagine whatever service you work for knows about or condones your actions, nor if your local state department of health thinks you should be allowed to carry while you are on duty in EMS, permit or no. Yet you decide that YOU are qualified, not anybody else who has a say in the matter, to decide that its really safe to carry one, and that to me is the height of arrogance. The fact that you cannot recognize that carrying a concealed weapon onboard an ambulance is dangerous, let alone probably illegal, says a lot.
Firearms aren't the emotionally charged issue with me, I grew up around guns, I know how to use them, I am very good friends with many people who have them. What is an emotionally charged issue is someone who through their arrogance endangers themselves and others and tries to back it up with war stories and slogans.
Just for the record, the police say this about firearms. The use of deadly physical force is a last resort. It is not to be used as a means of coercion, or a means to intimidate, or any other reason than to kill a person who presents an imminent and complete risk to life. You are not their to kill anybody. If you like to carry a gun and where a uniform, by all means, become a cop, and stop endangering those who have pledged their lives to help others. Again, I remit to you that if it is "part of the job", then your employer and local certifying agency shouldn't have a problem with your views, right? But I'll tell you what, seeing as your profile says Washington, I'll do my own little research project on what they think about EMS providers packing heat while saving lives. I'll get back to you.

 

[ffemt8978]

Originally posted by asysin2leads@Aug 15 2005, 01:26 AM
The fact that you cannot recognize that carrying a concealed weapon onboard an ambulance is dangerous, let alone ILLEGAL, says a lot.

I would like to point out one more time,

IT IS NOT ILLEGAL TO CARRY FIREARMS ON AN AMBULANCE IN EVERY STATE!

It may be illegal where you are, but that does not mean it applies the same in every state. I know for a fact that it is not illegal in this state to carry a firearm on an ambulance. Please make sure your information is accurate before you accuse someone of an illegal act.

 

[asysin2leads]

Maybe not illegal per se, but show me the EMS office that thinks its ok for the ambulance service which has the insurance or protocols in place to cover armed providers, and I will be a might surprised. And if its all right to carry while working EMS, why does it need to be concealed? If you need to get to it that much, and its perfectly ok to carry, then why not just have it on your hip? Why the cloak and dagger?

 

[Luno]

The reason I use terms like "gun nut" and "half cocked" is because I have my doubts about anyone who uses action movie slogans to justify carrying a concealed weapon on board an ambulance.

Okay, you are entirely entitled to your doubts, my state certifications and licenses speak for themselves. Not only in EMS. Your assumption of "action movie slogans" is weak at best, these are things that are out of your lane, but I would be more than happy to attempt to explain them to you. The only purpose of a firearm in a protective situation is to stop the threat. If you cannot stomach that, then by all means, don't bring one. A simple point that was poorly assumed to mean something else.

Yet you decide that YOU are qualified, not anybody else who has a say in the matter, to decide that its really safe to carry one, and that to me is the height of arrogance.

Actually I am qualified by multiple states law enforcement testing criteria, including the Department of State (current), and the US Navy (current). So again, you assume, on very little information, which in my opinion is the height of ignorance.

What BOTHERS me is the thought of you getting partnered up with some easily impressionable young EMT and feeding him your nonsense, and then subsequently reading about his and your untimely demise.

Well, I may disagree with your opinion, but I guess everyone's got a right to one.

The fact that you cannot recognize that carrying a concealed weapon onboard an ambulance is dangerous, let alone ILLEGAL, says a lot.

The fact that you assume that everywhere it is illegal, brings me back to a previous point, about your assumptions. In this state it is not.

The fact that you cannot recognize that carrying a concealed weapon onboard an ambulance is dangerous, let alone ILLEGAL, says a lot.

While you continue to portray that carrying a concealed weapon aboard an ambulance is dangerous, you have yet to provide proof.

The use of deadly physical force is a last resort. It is not to be used as a means of coercion, or a means to intimidate, or any other reason than to kill a person who presents an imminent and complete risk to life.

I would suggest that you review what a force continuum is, and where it fits in, deadly force is not the last resort, it is a response to a threat. And as you aren't a LEO, I would like to draw your attention to "proning" a subject, at gunpoint, it is done as a means of coercion, and expressly to intimidate someone.

Again, I remit to you that if it is "part of the job", then your employer and local certifying agency shouldn't have a problem with your views, right?

Had you read my previous postings in their entirety, you would have recognized the error of this, and now? No, it is just part of my job.

 

[Luno]

Maybe not illegal per se, but show me the EMS office that thinks its ok for the ambulance service which has the insurance or protocols in place to cover armed providers, and I will be a might surprised. And if its all right to carry while working EMS, why does it need to be concealed? If you need to get to it that much, and its perfectly ok to carry, then why not just have it on your hip? Why the cloak and dagger?

There are very good reasons not to have it on your hip, concealment is an element of retention. Our primary job is to save people, however, the weapon is there to save myself. Weapons by their very nature convey authority. We are there to help, not arrest. There is no "cloak and dagger" to it, by your very verbage presumes a covert attack. There is no initiated attack. We are not there to enforce, but the unfortunate side is that not everyone likes people who help people. Your decision to carry or not is up to you, mine is up to me.

 

[Jon]

another point to this conversation... About a year ago, one of the BIGGG local Police Departments was talking about going ALS... they have 6+ officers on 24/7, and all are EMT's... all carry BLS bags and respond to medical emergencies.. if they beat the ambulance.. they bring their gear in and start treating...

The locla FD had gone ALS, and then gone broke... they were short money for a while becuase ALS cost more to start up, and it took longer than planned for reimbursment from insurance, o the PD talked about going ALS and "doing it right"



Big argument to this was is the officer armed??? what will he do if "officer down" cpmes through and he is working a resp. diff???? and is the officer armed or unarmed... because the plan was that he played cop, and then when called, played medic.


Jon