Some sobering stats.......

[asysin2leads]

Originally posted by Cap'nPanic+Aug 17 2005, 07:54 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cap'nPanic @ Aug 17 2005, 07:54 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by asysin2leads@Aug 17 2005, 01:31 AM
<!--QuoteBegin-Cap'nPanic

@Aug 17 2005, 01:14 AM
IMHO, Knives are just as dangerous as guns if left in the wrong hands. 2nd, knives on-scene are just bad juju all the way around.

You can't blow the back off someone's skull from 50ft away with a knife. You can't cut a seatbelt to save someone's life with a gun. Guns and knives are apples and oranges.

You can throw a knife into someones head and kill them or leave them brain damaged. Remember there are people who throw knives at targets as a hobby, I wouldnt doubt it if my head would be an easy target for them.

Also if you have a knife on you, dont count on that knife to save your life. Your pt could overpower you can turn the knife back on you and leave you dead.

I understand that you would fight to keep your life but it also wouldnt look too good in the papers when a headline reads: "Paramedic stabs and kills patient". Thats when your company will likely shut its doors and you will lose your house.

I honestly think if you checked into some defensive classes Im sure with training and in that training you would make a better decision. Remember the most basic thing we were taught: SCENE SAFETY. If you get an eerie feeling in the middle of your assesment, its time to figure out a way to leave the scene w/o abandoning your pt. Follow your gut and you'll avoid more situations than you'll get into.

-Cap'nPanic

The one the only the loser [/b][/quote]
You can throw a knife, ergo, it is just as dangerous as a gun. That's what you're getting at? This, in your mind, really makes sense to you. I mean, you're saying to me, that a knife, thrown, has the same stopping power as a .357 Magnum? My my my my my...

And also, you say that an attacker who gets cut with your knife will have a better chance against you then say his family when you PULL OUT YOUR CONCEALED GUN THAT YOU'RE NOT SUPPOSED TO HAVE AND SHOOT HIM??? I mean, you typed that, read it, and it makes sense to you. Right?

Just so you know, it is actually REALLY HARD to KILL someone with a knife. You either have to get them in the exact right place, or keep stabbing and stabbing and stabbing. You guys REALLY have to cut down on the action movie nights, all right?

I actually decided to do some research about EMS professionals killed in the line of duty, and you'd think the way the guys from Washington state were talking, its some kind of war zone. One would expect and extensive roll of names of EMS workers killed by armed people, their lives saved if ONLY THEY HAD A GUN TO DEFEND THEMSELVES, right? Well, no. According to the National EMS Memorial website, in Washington state, since this list was started, there have been a grand total of 4 EMS workers killed in the line of duty in Washington. One was in a motor vehicle accident while on duty, the other three in a MEDEVAC helicopter crash in 1989. Kinda hard to justify packing heat with those statistics, isn't it? In fact, I went back and did some random checking of causes of death in the memorial (depressing work, trust me), and while I found an abundance of Motor Vehicle Accidents, and a whole bunch of heart attacks, I wasn't finding many (actually I didn't find any) EMS providers who were shot and killed. Now, we can argue 2nd admendment rights all night long, and I can try and convince you that as a professional you are under different regulations, but jsut ask yourself this, do you think, maybe, just maybe, that the reason there AREN'T a whole bunch of names of people shot is because WE DON'T CARRY GUNS? Looking at the statistics for gun deaths annually, I think that's a GREAT possibility.

 

[Cap'nPanic]

Asys,
Im not argiung 2nd amendment rights, nor am I a card carrying memeber of the NRA, even though I do hunt as a hobby. I personally think the NRA is far too radical, and quite honestly I think our 2nd amendment rights will stay just as they are.

Its not a matter of stopping power, its a matter of the danger. You are more likely to get injured on the job than killed.

Now, yes it is hard to kill someone with a knife, but if your pt is bent on hell to do it then, yes it can be done. The only reason I see for carrying a knife on the unit is for extrication purposes to cut a seatbelt to save ones life. And we can argue this all night, but I will hold to my belief that guns and knives just dont belong in the EMS field as a means of defense.

Rescue,
I am sorry if I made you feel chastised, I really am, maybe I chose bad wording, but I think I was also misunderstood, Im not great with words but let me attempt to clarify anyhow.

What I meant was for you to make the right decision for YOU while you got the training. Some people feel its too great of a responsibility, while others decide to take the responsibility with the privilege of carrying a concealed firearm/weapon. It just helps to also make an informed decision, that is why we must go through such training before allowed to carry a concealed weapon.

When I referred to scene safety I did not mean it that you should take remediation for it, I am just saying that scene safety is the basis of this discussion.

I dont expect everyone to agree with me, nor do I expect myself to agree with everyone else, that is what makes this world go round and round.

Once again I truly am sorry if I made anyone feel like they were being attacked. If you have any further comments or questions please PM me. Im a nice person, but I admittedly chose bad wording.

Cap'nPanic

The one, the only, the bad word chooser........

 

[ffemt8978]

Asys, you said you couldn't find any references to medics being shot in the line of duty? Try these: (Linked to DT4EMS's website, which is where I found them. Thanks to DT for having them in one handy spot.)(Also, I realize that these are not from WA state, but wanted to point out that it does happen.)

Medic Shot
Medics Shot to Death
Medic Shot in Face
Pulled a Loaded Gun on Medics

These are only the articles that had something to do with firearms in their titles. It does not include the stabbings, kidnapping, being struck with a deadly weapon, etc...

Asys, I also understand that the rules are different when I put on my EMS uniform. Why is it that you can't understand that my RIGHTS as an individual do not disappear the moment I put on that uniform?

Also, I never said it was a war zone here. Matter of fact, I've tried to limit myself to correcting your incorrect statements about it being ILLEGAL to carry a firearm on an ambulance. I never said if I thought it was a good idea or not.

I do agree with CapnPanic that you are much more likely to be seriously injured in this job as the victim of an assault than you are to be killed. Either way, the fact that EMS should not have to be armed and that the Star of Life is a great universal symbol that says we're the good guys only trying to help our fellow man will be of little comfort to your family if you are seriously injured or even killed in the line of duty because you thought your right to self defense went out the window when you put your uniform on.

Just to clarify this, I am not advocating that EMS personnel be armed, but I'm not saying that weapons should be banned from ambulances either.

 

[rescuejew]

Cap'n'Panic: Forgiven...sorry if I took it the wrong way, but thanks for apologizing just the same.

Just to add some levity about assaults vs line death: A medic here had a knife pulled on him by some drunk that called EMS. (THE a**hole frequent flier) This "gentleman" happens to use a w/c although he can walk a little. To diffuse the situation in which the medic found himself, obviously soon to be a stabbing victim, he called the city cop over, who promptly overturned said a**hole in his w/c.

Not deadly force, and no one got hurt...sometimes ingenuity can save the day.

 

[asysin2leads]

Originally posted by ffemt8978@Aug 17 2005, 11:35 PM
Asys, I also understand that the rules are different when I put on my EMS uniform. Why is it that you can't understand that my RIGHTS as an individual do not disappear the moment I put on that uniform?

To an extent, actually, yes, when you are working in an official capacity, many of the rights you enjoy as a citizen, DO in fact go out the window. My operating guide starts out with about a page and half of behavior you're not allowed to engage in on duty, things that your normal everyday citizen can enjoy. The reason for this is because in exchange, you are given certain priveleges that the ordinary citizen does not enjoy. For instance, an EMS provider, if need be, can perform acts which would be considered breaking and entering or destruction of property outside the realm of the job. I am not saying anyone does not have the right to defend themselves, in fact, the law allows for "reasonable measures to extricate oneself from the situation." We as private citizens can argue all night long whether a gun is a means of self defense or not, but as professionals, the ones who will be in front of a court of law, I am saying that they will not see it as a means of self defense but as a means of applying deadly force, which you are not allowed to do.
The 2nd admendment, right or wrong, I believe, says that a private citizen does have a right to bear arms. The law does give you provisions to defend yourself against attack. But don't think this for a second means it gives you the absolute right to carry a concealed firearm while working in the capacity of an EMS provider. Luno never really did explain why, if it was perfectly okay to carry a firearm on duty, it had to be concealed. The only professionals who carry concealed weapons are police officers undercover, and I really don't think we've found a need for undercover EMS quite yet. As I said before, ankle holsters are for undercover police officers, mobsters, and wannabe weekend warriors waiting to shoot someone. If you guys REALLY have the need to have a gun, and you get the authorization to posess and use it while on duty, then have it in clear view, in an easier access position, on your hip. The town I worked in once used to have police officers who were also the BLS first responders. They had an EMT patch on one arm, a police patch on the other, and their service piece on their hip.

 

[ffemt8978]

Originally posted by asysin2leads@Aug 17 2005, 10:21 PM
Luno never really did explain why, if it was perfectly okay to carry a firearm on duty, it had to be concealed.
<snip>
If you guys REALLY have the need to have a gun, and you get the authorization to posess and use it while on duty, then have it in clear view, in an easier access position, on your hip.

Actually, he did. He stated that it was concealed for easier retention. Who's going to grab for your gun if they don't know you have one?

the ones who will be in front of a court of law, I am saying that they will not see it as a means of self defense but as a means of applying deadly force, which you are not allowed to do.

Yes, we are allowed to use deadly force if it is justified for us to do so (i.e. defense of ourselves or another from a deadly force attack). Also, keep in mind, if you are faced with a deadly force attack, you have to be alive to go to court. Would you rather be judged by 12 or carried by 6?

 

[asysin2leads]

Originally posted by ffemt8978+Aug 18 2005, 12:36 AM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (ffemt8978 @ Aug 18 2005, 12:36 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-asysin2leads@Aug 17 2005, 10:21 PM
Luno never really did explain why, if it was perfectly okay to carry a firearm on duty, it had to be concealed.
<snip>
If you guys REALLY have the need to have a gun, and you get the authorization to posess and use it while on duty, then have it in clear view, in an easier access position, on your hip.

Actually, he did. He stated that it was concealed for easier retention. Who's going to grab for your gun if they don't know you have one?

the ones who will be in front of a court of law, I am saying that they will not see it as a means of self defense but as a means of applying deadly force, which you are not allowed to do.

Yes, we are allowed to use deadly force if it is justified for us to do so (i.e. defense of ourselves or another from a deadly force attack). Also, keep in mind, if you are faced with a deadly force attack, you have to be alive to go to court. Would you rather be judged by 12 or carried by 6? [/b][/quote]
Let me restate that. Luno never came up with a REAL explaination for why he needed to carry concealed. I would say that a stable hip holster, with a safety strap, is probably a lot more stable than something kicking around on your leg, easily exposed if your pant leg gets even partially pulled up. Nope, if you want to carry a firearm, wear it proudly, out in the open. We're not into covert ops here in our weird wacky world of EMS, we like to stand tall and stand proud, not peer furtively over our shoulders as we pat the inside of our leg, making sure no one knows that we can blow them away if we feel they are a threat.
Maybe you can pull up your statutes for self defense in Washington, remembering that you are not afforded the same rights as a private citizen. To the best of my knowledge, it is reasonable force, not authorization to SHOOT AND KILL A PERCIEVED THREAT when you are working EMS, what with our directives to withdraw to a safe distance and all.
Secondly, don't try and justify your arguements with cliches. Guns and people who buy in to catch phrases usually equals someone dead. Case in point:

Man: YOU CAN HAVE MAH GUN WHEN YOU PRY IT FROM MY COLD DEAD FINGERS!
Police: Okay! <insert sounds of gunfire here>

I really suggest you an Luno sign up for the police academy. They'll teach you the ins and outs of the use of deadly force and the those tricky legalities of when you pull out your concealed firearm and put a few rounds through someone. Leave the boring bandaging and ACLS to us losers. I really hope you guys spend at least half the time on things like bleeding control, and cardiac anatomy and physiology that you do getting a permit to carry and looking for a reason to use it.

 

[ffemt8978]

You asked for it, so here it is:

RCW 9A.16.050 Homicide -- By other person -- When justifiable.

RCW 9A.16.050
Homicide -- By other person -- When justifiable.

Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

(1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

(2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.

[1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.050.]

I don't see anything in there where EMS is exempted from this, do you?

 

[ffemt8978]

Or would you prefer when the Use of Force is justifiable?

RCW 9A.16.020 Use of force -- When lawful.

RCW 9A.16.020
Use of force -- When lawful.

The use, attempt, or offer to use force upon or toward the person of another is not unlawful in the following cases:

(1) Whenever necessarily used by a public officer in the performance of a legal duty, or a person assisting the officer and acting under the officer's direction;

(2) Whenever necessarily used by a person arresting one who has committed a felony and delivering him or her to a public officer competent to receive him or her into custody;

(3) Whenever used by a party about to be injured, or by another lawfully aiding him or her, in preventing or attempting to prevent an offense against his or her person, or a malicious trespass, or other malicious interference with real or personal property lawfully in his or her possession, in case the force is not more than is necessary;

(4) Whenever reasonably used by a person to detain someone who enters or remains unlawfully in a building or on real property lawfully in the possession of such person, so long as such detention is reasonable in duration and manner to investigate the reason for the detained person's presence on the premises, and so long as the premises in question did not reasonably appear to be intended to be open to members of the public;

(5) Whenever used by a carrier of passengers or the carrier's authorized agent or servant, or other person assisting them at their request in expelling from a carriage, railway car, vessel, or other vehicle, a passenger who refuses to obey a lawful and reasonable regulation prescribed for the conduct of passengers, if such vehicle has first been stopped and the force used is not more than is necessary to expel the offender with reasonable regard to the offender's personal safety;

(6) Whenever used by any person to prevent a mentally ill, mentally incompetent, or mentally disabled person from committing an act dangerous to any person, or in enforcing necessary restraint for the protection or restoration to health of the person, during such period only as is necessary to obtain legal authority for the restraint or custody of the person.

[1986 c 149 § 2; 1979 ex.s. c 244 § 7; 1977 ex.s. c 80 § 13; 1975 1st ex.s. c 260 § 9A.16.020.]

NOTES:

Effective date -- 1979 ex.s. c 244: See RCW 9A.44.902.

Purpose -- Intent -- Severability -- 1977 ex.s. c 80: See notes following RCW 4.16.190.

I would also like to point out that I have been through a reserve police academy. The reason I now have a concealed weapons permit is simple - when I was a jailer, I had my life threatened by an inmate who had attempted to kill a cop. According to your philosophy, I should not be allowed to be an EMS provider because I choose not to be a victim and defend myself.

I challenge you to find one post where I said I carried on my ambulance. You won't find one because I never said that. Your attitude that I should give up my range time to study medical texts is tantamount to condesention. Might I suggest you pull your nose out of your books and go to a range? Also, I do spend more time studying medical procedures than I do at the range.

I would also like to point out the absolute arrogance of your last statement. Yes, I have a permit but no, I don't go around looking for a reason to use it. It is the opposite, as a matter of fact. I look for any reason not to use it and tend to avoid situations where I might have to. I'm beginning to wonder if your opposition to this has to do with the way you feel you would handle yourself in these situations, and not the way others conduct themselves.

 

[Luno]

Let's see, I'm gone for 56 hrs, and all hell breaks loose, well, isn't that special. Asysin2leads, you asked me a very direct question, and committed yourself twice to silence, pending my answer. This is no longer about guns, but this is about your inability to keep your word. Now, as I am going to step out on the ledge again, you're probably not going to keep your word. So I guess the next step is to call God in the morning, and have her write up that 11th commandment. But again, I don't think it would help you keep your word either.

 

[Speed]

EMS is neutral. You start putting guns on ambulance, and medics... We will just be another target. It's like narcotics on ambulances, not all of them have it, but you still get the run around and the junkies targeting you for a quick high (or low).

Bad idea. If you're so uncomfortable in your job that you thing a gun is necessary, wear a vest, if you still need more... become a dispatcher instead.

 

[ECC]

Originally posted by asysin2leads@Aug 16 2005, 10:43 PM
Yeppers, FDNY EMS Battalion 08

Wonderful.

I worked in the 35, 57 (when they were one 37!), the 47 (when it was 41), back to 35/57 (still 37) and then off to the wonderful world of being an officer...I then went to CB, 47, 26, 17 then 31 before I decided to leave for much greener pastures.

I'll tell you this...it is specifically prohibited by the FDNY OPS Guide to bring any sort of weapon to the job. However I was aware (pre officer) of some whom were armed. I cannot tell you once when there was a DOCUMENTED event where a member of EMS got hung out to dry for having a weapon on them. I can also say I know of a medic (retired) who assisted NYPD during a shootout with the officer's back up piece. Furthermore, in the neck of the woods I worked (Bedford-Stuyvesant) I was the target of one too many misguided youths (What is a yewt? ) who were armed. Thankfully I survived. I too was one of the first to get my ballistic vest when it was finally offered...the one I procured for personal reasons had lived beyond it's usable service life.

What does this mean? I was not ever involved in the world of Tatical EMS. I am not trained in it, nor can I have a meaningful conversation about it. Assuming that Asys has no other training, I am thinking he is in the same boat as I am. Luno works in an atmosphere where carring concealed is OK. His medical Director has NO say in it unless he/she makes whomever listens to him put it in their OPS Guide. Remember that the Medical Directors of the FDNY make NO operational decisions...just medical ones.

I did not carry back then (the early to mid 90's) because it would have cost me a whole lot of trouble and more importantly my career because my job would not have backed me up. The risks associated with working NYC EMS during that time period were voluntary and you assumed them as such. Luno is apparantly in a different boat.

To carry concealed in Luno's situation perhaps is the right thing to do. If he carries open, it may invite trouble that he does not need. To tell Luno where to carry is not in our scope to decide for him.

Also...since Luno carries as part of a Tactical Team, where do you suggest he secure his weapon if you insist that he does not carry concealed? If it is a requirement for him to have a weapon for Tactical responses, he should have it on him.

This is not an attack on anyone, merely JMHO!

Stay Safe everyone!

 

[rescuejew]

The argument has been reduced to one simple question now: Is the use of deadly force allowable? Here's my answer...

Whether you shoot him, stab him, or beat him with an oxygen tank, it is still deadly force. In this state all you have to say is: "I thought my life was in danger..." and as long as witnesses back you, it won't be huge thing. If someone is a PERCEIVED THREAT, what the hell does it matter whether you have a gun or not? You're still going to fight like hell one way or another to survive. (and those are the key words: ONE WAY OR ANOTHER)

If Luno is trained and knows how to keep his weapon from the hands of those grubby little hoodrats...who are we to say he cant have it? If his local protocols allow him to carry concealed, leave him alone. He's a big boy, he can handle himself. He doesnt tarnish the profession, there are a hundred different kinds of EMTs out there, judging one doesnt unite us as a profession, it causes dissention.

I still congratulate everyone to sticking to their guns, so to speak, but this forum is getting out of hand, in my opinion. No one is going to miraculously change their opinion, and certainly no amount of personal, verbal assault is going to persuade anyone. Discussion is one thing, belittling someone for their choice is another.

 

[Luno]

Rescue Jew, I would agree with you again. Completely out of hand, people should be able to discuss opinions without name calling, or even trying to convince someone else. I would say that there is a difference between backing up your opinions with facts, as to why you chose to do what you did, and trying to change someone else's mind. I'm gonna throw one more quote out there, for what it's worth.

"Any Momentary triumph you think you have gained through argument is really a Pyrrhic victory: The resentment and ill will you stir up is tronger and lasts longer than any momentary change of opinion. It is much more powerful to get others to agree with you through your actions, without saying a word. Demonstrate, do not explicate."

And to the rest, who have expressed their opinions, I appreciate your input, whether for or against, as it inspires discussion, and from time to time, we need introspection, even on the harder questions. I enjoy this forum, as people can usually discuss varying opinions, and present viewpoints for or against, occasionally there are deviations from that standard. <_<

 

[ffemt8978]

And on that note, I think it's time this thread gets laid to rest. The arguements have been made, now it's time to make up your own mind.