Phridae
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Haha, that makes so much sense!
Some sobering stats.......
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Thank the lordy assault on an EMT in NC is FELONY. We carry knives, wear Kevlar, and swing O2 tanks in the heat of battle. We dont go in unles PD has cleared the scene first.
On a side note, we had a bounty out on us last year because some hoods got pissed off that a man who had run his motorcycle into the side of the truck had been declared dead on scene and began assaulting the medics; kicking the boxes, rocking the truck, beating the s*&! out of the guys. It was a mob of 200 or more. Shortly after, the word on the street was $3500 for killing a paramedic and $5000 for killing a cop. G-d bless the gang unit for handing out ***-whoopins until people started to point the finger. 2 mena re in jail now and our guys are a little bit safer...
On a side note, we had a bounty out on us last year because some hoods got pissed off that a man who had run his motorcycle into the side of the truck had been declared dead on scene and began assaulting the medics; kicking the boxes, rocking the truck, beating the s*&! out of the guys. It was a mob of 200 or more. Shortly after, the word on the street was $3500 for killing a paramedic and $5000 for killing a cop. G-d bless the gang unit for handing out ***-whoopins until people started to point the finger. 2 mena re in jail now and our guys are a little bit safer...
rescuecpt
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Yesterday we were mutual-aided to pick up an unconscious patient at the Pilgrim State Psychiatric Hospital. Besides the fact that I hate the place because it's very creepy outside (lots of old, run down buildings - they only use a couple buildings these days and the rest are vacant), it houses, well, psych patients. Which makes me nervous since they're often unpredictable (read: dangerous to me).
So I'm at the nurses station getting the transfer papers while my partners package the patient. I ask what he's in for. She looks at me like I have 3 heads and says "psychosis"... I replied "yes, I figured as much. Is he dangerous to himself or others? Is he violent?" To which she replies "not lately". She didn't seem to amused when I asked what "lately" meant and if I should bring a security guard with us.
He was barely conscious, so that made me feel a little better about it. He was in a regular sinus rhythm, and his pressure was so low he couldn't lift his arms and legs if he tried. Pinpoint pupils, but the entire staff swore up and down that there was no way he could have gotten narcotics. Since he was about 6ft, 200lbs and we had a short ride to the hospital, we just maintained him in his current state and monitored his vitals and heart - rather than give him narcan and risk having to fight with a very angry psych patient.
Was that the best treatment? Not necessarily. Was it the best thing for me and my crew, maybe. We made it to the hospital in one piece. And while there we learned that he has syphillus. I'm very glad I wore my gloves the whole time. And we deconned EVERYTHING before leaving the hospital.
So I'm at the nurses station getting the transfer papers while my partners package the patient. I ask what he's in for. She looks at me like I have 3 heads and says "psychosis"... I replied "yes, I figured as much. Is he dangerous to himself or others? Is he violent?" To which she replies "not lately". She didn't seem to amused when I asked what "lately" meant and if I should bring a security guard with us.
He was barely conscious, so that made me feel a little better about it. He was in a regular sinus rhythm, and his pressure was so low he couldn't lift his arms and legs if he tried. Pinpoint pupils, but the entire staff swore up and down that there was no way he could have gotten narcotics. Since he was about 6ft, 200lbs and we had a short ride to the hospital, we just maintained him in his current state and monitored his vitals and heart - rather than give him narcan and risk having to fight with a very angry psych patient.
Was that the best treatment? Not necessarily. Was it the best thing for me and my crew, maybe. We made it to the hospital in one piece. And while there we learned that he has syphillus.
I'm very glad I wore my gloves the whole time. And we deconned EVERYTHING before leaving the hospital.
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To quote hamlet: "VD, or not VD, that is the question which preocupies all men.."
Sound like a lot of fun.... Would have been almost better to hit him with narcan on the floor... and if he woke up, use the leathers and a guard or 3.
Oh, and that sounds like a great place... talk to PARescue sometime about Norristown State Hospital... he's played in some of their abandoned bldg's with his SAR crew...
Philly has 2 abandoned psych hosptials... one of them is the old Eastern PA Pscyh Institute, the other being Byberry State Hospital.
And we have Friends. A very nice Psych hospital.
And we have the Kirkbride Center, named for Dr. Thomas Kirkbride. This is located in the old Pennsylvania Hospital for the Insane. Great facility... lots of history.
And a few other crazy places...
Sound like a lot of fun.... Would have been almost better to hit him with narcan on the floor... and if he woke up, use the leathers and a guard or 3.
Oh, and that sounds like a great place... talk to PARescue sometime about Norristown State Hospital... he's played in some of their abandoned bldg's with his SAR crew...
Philly has 2 abandoned psych hosptials... one of them is the old Eastern PA Pscyh Institute, the other being Byberry State Hospital.
And we have Friends. A very nice Psych hospital.
And we have the Kirkbride Center, named for Dr. Thomas Kirkbride. This is located in the old Pennsylvania Hospital for the Insane. Great facility... lots of history.
And a few other crazy places...
asysin2leads
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>On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB.
Unless you're a licensed law enforcement officer, coming on to the ambulance I'm working on with a gun, tazer, or whatever the hell you wannabe weekend warriors can order out of the damn magazines will get you an oxygen bottle up the *** with the regulator still attached.
Gunplay has no place in emergency medicine. Take it to the paintball range or SOCOM. Man I can't stand cowboys. You want to be cop, go do the training, show you have the professionalism and state of mind to perform your duty while armed. Anyone got the stats for how many people are killed by yahoos with ankle holsters?
I just love this cavalier attitude, yeah, sure carrying a concealed firearm is illegal, and is dangerous, but you know I GOTTA PROTECT MYSELF!, lol. And I love how you drew it on people. Man, remind me NEVER EVER to get hurt in your neck of the woods. Can't we get people like this out of my profession?
Unless you're a licensed law enforcement officer, coming on to the ambulance I'm working on with a gun, tazer, or whatever the hell you wannabe weekend warriors can order out of the damn magazines will get you an oxygen bottle up the *** with the regulator still attached.
Gunplay has no place in emergency medicine. Take it to the paintball range or SOCOM. Man I can't stand cowboys. You want to be cop, go do the training, show you have the professionalism and state of mind to perform your duty while armed. Anyone got the stats for how many people are killed by yahoos with ankle holsters?
I just love this cavalier attitude, yeah, sure carrying a concealed firearm is illegal, and is dangerous, but you know I GOTTA PROTECT MYSELF!, lol. And I love how you drew it on people. Man, remind me NEVER EVER to get hurt in your neck of the woods. Can't we get people like this out of my profession?
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What makes you think it's illegal?
OP
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DT4EMS
Kip Teitsort, Founder
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I can't find it.......... :unsure:
Where is it at? Which post talks about being armed.
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It's my understanding that Luno has extensive training in firearms and is a trained Tactical Medic.
That's one heck of a statement to make. Weekend warriors? Oh please. They give me a pair of trauma shears, an O2 tank, and a nasal cannula to deal patients where I work.
If you're looking for a bunch of people to start an argument with you're going to have to try some other forum. I can only wish someone as skilled and intelligent as Luno would come my aid if I needed EMS.
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DT4EMS,
Here is the original post.
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DT4EMS
Kip Teitsort, Founder
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Ahhhh, thanks.
Now I can respond.
While I was still working in South Florida on the ambulance, there were several EMT's and Medics that carried concealed. Florida has a conceal carry law. Once a person takes a safety course, pays the fee and passes the background investigation they can carry.
As a police officer most departments have a policy either mandating off-duty carry or "reccomending" it. So there are a lot of peeople like myself that do both EMS and LEO. Therefore I used to have my handgun with me at all times.
The reason is we put some people in jail that don't want to be there.........If they see you on the street or in a store with your family, it is not uncommon for them to want revenge. Well guess what......I would respond on an ambulance and deal with the same scrote bags I arrested the week before.
I am happy for those that work in an area where assault on EMS is not an issue. I was shot at in Florida standing outside of our base. I had been threatened "If you bring him across that canal, we will kill you too" and numerous other incidents. BTW 6 officers WERE present.
My ambulance was car-jacked on a rural stretch of highway in Missouri while I was in the back with a patient............so these things do happen.
When a person READS what I believe they can make an informed decision about what I am teaching EMS providers. I am NOT teaching people "How to fight" I am teaching escape techniques and preperation for the legal issues that follow.
Again, it is great that there are still areas where medics don't get attacked on a regular basis. But statiscally those places are getting fewer and farther between.
look at www.davesems.com
Now as far as people being weekend warriors and striking someone with an O2 bottle............just make sure it is the proper level on a force continuum or you will go to jail and your service will write a fat check.
That is another reason I put together my course was to get people to understand that hitting someone in the head with an O2 Bottle is considered DEADLY FORCE!
So if the person wasn't trying to KILL YOU, you can not do that!
What I tell people that take my course is "I am trying to buy you a second." A second to make a decision, A second to escape etc.
There are ambulance services that allow their people to carry handcuffs, expandable batons etc. I guess there is a need in their area.........
You would think they have lawyers that have looked at all of the angles about alllowing such a practice.
I don't think it should be a blanket answer to allow all EMS personnel to carry, but if you are in a conceal state and you meet the requirements, so be it.
I just think we should be careful about talking about issues we either don't understand or have no experience in. Not all areas are the same. :unsure:
Now I can respond.
While I was still working in South Florida on the ambulance, there were several EMT's and Medics that carried concealed. Florida has a conceal carry law. Once a person takes a safety course, pays the fee and passes the background investigation they can carry.
As a police officer most departments have a policy either mandating off-duty carry or "reccomending" it. So there are a lot of peeople like myself that do both EMS and LEO. Therefore I used to have my handgun with me at all times.
The reason is we put some people in jail that don't want to be there.........If they see you on the street or in a store with your family, it is not uncommon for them to want revenge. Well guess what......I would respond on an ambulance and deal with the same scrote bags I arrested the week before.
I am happy for those that work in an area where assault on EMS is not an issue. I was shot at in Florida standing outside of our base. I had been threatened "If you bring him across that canal, we will kill you too" and numerous other incidents. BTW 6 officers WERE present.
My ambulance was car-jacked on a rural stretch of highway in Missouri while I was in the back with a patient............so these things do happen.
When a person READS what I believe they can make an informed decision about what I am teaching EMS providers. I am NOT teaching people "How to fight" I am teaching escape techniques and preperation for the legal issues that follow.
Again, it is great that there are still areas where medics don't get attacked on a regular basis. But statiscally those places are getting fewer and farther between.
look at www.davesems.com
Now as far as people being weekend warriors and striking someone with an O2 bottle............just make sure it is the proper level on a force continuum or you will go to jail and your service will write a fat check.
That is another reason I put together my course was to get people to understand that hitting someone in the head with an O2 Bottle is considered DEADLY FORCE!
So if the person wasn't trying to KILL YOU, you can not do that!
What I tell people that take my course is "I am trying to buy you a second." A second to make a decision, A second to escape etc.
There are ambulance services that allow their people to carry handcuffs, expandable batons etc. I guess there is a need in their area.........
You would think they have lawyers that have looked at all of the angles about alllowing such a practice.
I don't think it should be a blanket answer to allow all EMS personnel to carry, but if you are in a conceal state and you meet the requirements, so be it.
I just think we should be careful about talking about issues we either don't understand or have no experience in. Not all areas are the same. :unsure:
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What makes you think it's illegal? [/b][/quote]
In PA, State DOH requires all services have a policy to the effect of "No members are permitted to carry any firearm (Poss. weapon... not sure) unless a law enforcement officer funcitioning as a law enforcement officer" now, my Fire Co. is an old-school rural FD... we have a gun locker in the bay.... leave your pistol, take the key... get on the truck.... Only used by 1 member who often carries conceled... he changes clothes before going on shift, leaves the gun there the whole day.... also used by our paid guy who "happens to be" a cop in the same municipality... he sometimes will go between the firehouse and his 2 cop jobs for 72 hours straight.
I've heard of some guys in my county carrying tasers on their rig.... they have unnofficial agreements with the cops.... the cop didn't see it, and will give them a cartridge....
I wouldn't have a problem with a mature, responsible partner, in law enforcement, who felt the need to carry conceled on the rig. I would have a problem with "Joe Whacker" getting a conceled carry permit and carring on my rig.
I'm 21 next year, and will probably get a permit and carry conceled, but not at the squad.
Jon
asysin2leads
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It's my understanding that Luno has extensive training in firearms and is a trained Tactical Medic.
That's one heck of a statement to make. Weekend warriors? Oh please. They give me a pair of trauma shears, an O2 tank, and a nasal cannula to deal patients where I work.
If you're looking for a bunch of people to start an argument with you're going to have to try some other forum. I can only wish someone as skilled and intelligent as Luno would come my aid if I needed EMS.
[/b][/quote]I'm not trying to start an argument, I'm stating a fact. The 'M' in EMS is stands for medicine, and guns and medicine just don't mix. I've worked with NYPD officers who work EMS as a side job, and with special forces medics who work civilian EMS at home. They don't carry, so your argument that "He is a skilled tactical medic" kinda just goes out the window. If you're working as a tactical medic, in full gear, with great big letters on you that say "TACTICAL MEDIC", with SWAT around you, fine, hey have all the guns you want. However, if you're working as a normal, run of the mill EMS provider, leave the handcannons at home, hmmmm? The only people who use ankle holsters are undercover cops, mobsters, and wannabe weekend warriors waiting to shoot somebody. I stand by my statement, get these friggin' yahoos out of my profession. I'll tell you, that stuff about medics in South Florida is scary, scary, scary stuff.
rescuecpt
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I know a LEO who will take his gun on the rig with him when he absolutely has to because he couldn't get home before a call to lock it up. It's tough when you're a Chief and you're called straight in from your job as a LEO - also, same as someone else mentioned - people he has arrested, etc. happen to live in some of the neighborhoods where he works as a medic - and people have been a threat before. He has as much of a right to protect himself and his patients on the ambulance as he does anyone else when he's carrying - which is supposed to be all the time.
asysin2leads
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I know a LEO who will take his gun on the rig with him when he absolutely has to because he couldn't get home before a call to lock it up. It's tough when you're a Chief and you're called straight in from your job as a LEO - also, same as someone else mentioned - people he has arrested, etc. happen to live in some of the neighborhoods where he works as a medic - and people have been a threat before. He has as much of a right to protect himself and his patients on the ambulance as he does anyone else when he's carrying - which is supposed to be all the time. [/b][/quote]
You're right, he does have a right to protect himself. He doesn't have the right to endanger the safety of the crew, patient, and bystanders by bringing a gun in when it isn't expected. If he is in such danger that he needs to be armed when he responds, then he should pass the Chief's hat onto someone else. Guns and ambulances, they don't mix. Armed EMS providers. This ain't Israel, folks. I sure hope none of the people any of these guys work with last sight isn't gonna be the drunk guy reaching for the crew member's ankle holster on a call. And don't give me that NRA crap that you need a gun to defend your crew and patient. That's what the POLICE are for.
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Assuming you have the police on scene with you and don't have to wait 35-45 minutes like we do.
I agree that we shouldn't have to carry firearms in EMS, but I'm a firm believer in the right to defend myself if needed.
rescuecpt
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Just having a gun is not dangerous. If it is properly secured and the person carrying it is trained and competent, there is no difference than if that officer was on the street or on a subway or in a precinct. Trained officers are aware of their service piece at all times. Guns don't just fall out of holsters, nor do they just slide out.
Remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
asysin2leads
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As for the not dangerous think, actually, yes having a gun IS dangerous. Secondly, I have police officers accompany me on rig for various types of ride alongs. Its not with the fact of them being armed, while on duty, in uniform that I have a problem with. Its people carrying when they are not. As the person working on the ambulance, I want a great big flashing sign saying "I HAVE A GUN", so I can be conscientious of it. I grew up around firearms. I know how to use them, and I say they have no place on anyone working EMS, if not because I'd like to have the notion, at the very basis level of everybody THAT EMS DOES NOT CARRY SO DON'T SHOOT AT ME. Yes, I know there will be people out there who will shoot at you in spite of, or because of, that fact, but it remains that being acuated with people who carry firearms drastically increases your risk of being shot. And don't tell me there isn't a chance of someone getting gun out of an ankle holster. That's just plain stupid.Originally posted by rescuecpt@Aug 11 2005, 09:17 AM
Just having a gun is not dangerous. If it is properly secured and the person carrying it is trained and competent, there is no difference than if that officer was on the street or on a subway or in a precinct. Trained officers are aware of their service piece at all times. Guns don't just fall out of holsters, nor do they just slide out.
Remember, guns don't kill people, people kill people.
I have to say, if it came down to brass tacks, I wouldnt want a gun on my bus, either, it wouldnt make me feel any safer, its just another gun I have to worry about.
In my experience, fights end up being hand to hand anyway and every time I have been shot at, I never found out who was doing it.
To DT4EMS: Referring to my previous post: JOKE! But whatever you teach, you better believe that if I perceive that my life or my partners life is endanger, I will do WHATEVER I have to do to disable the attacker to save our lives. To hell with semantics. I WILL be going home at the end of my shift and so will my partner if I have anything to say about it. Its better than a couple of people that work here that have told me they would just run and leave me alone to get my *** kicked.
I dont just go around arbitrarily bonking people on the head with a D cylinder...
In my experience, fights end up being hand to hand anyway and every time I have been shot at, I never found out who was doing it.
To DT4EMS: Referring to my previous post: JOKE! But whatever you teach, you better believe that if I perceive that my life or my partners life is endanger, I will do WHATEVER I have to do to disable the attacker to save our lives. To hell with semantics. I WILL be going home at the end of my shift and so will my partner if I have anything to say about it. Its better than a couple of people that work here that have told me they would just run and leave me alone to get my *** kicked.
I dont just go around arbitrarily bonking people on the head with a D cylinder...
rescuecpt
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We're not talking about some stranger hopping on the rig here, we're talking about someone that is known to the crew (very well, actually). If you have people you don't know hopping on the rig with guns, then yeah, I'd have a problem with that too. LEOs are always on duty, whether in uniform or not. I am perfectly comfortable riding with the person I ride with and their skills not only as a LEO but as a medic, as I should be. If not, I would need to find a different shift/partner.
PS - I didn't say someone can't get a gun out of the holster. Don't put words in my mouth.
I agree with you rescuecpt, if I havd the same constant partner EVERYDAY, then sure, I might be more comfortable with the idea of a weapon on the bus. We dont do that here, and I may have a different partner every shift so I'm less likely to be comfortable with people I am not as familiar with, but I think you have a very valid point.
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