Some sobering stats.......

[DT4EMS]

Although I can't go into specifics yet, I was made aware of something.

The data being collected up to this point is showing EMS providers are being attacked at a rate MORE than police officers.

There is still some real concerns because EMS provdres have been trained on "Scene Safety" for at least the past 15 years, but attacks are still occuring.

It kills me when I hear people form one area say "We wouldn't go there" or "We wouldn't have done that", and a few miles away in another service a person gets attacked.

It is fine when we can pass judgement when someone gets hurt saying "Why didn't they check for scene safety?"

Let me say this.........In today's age, I would have to say that most EMT's and Medics are checking for scene safety. The problem arises when they are attacked by people they never suspected.

Every day at the PD we get emails regarding officer safety because some dirtbag has found "new and improved" ways to shoot, stab, crush us. You would not believe some of the "improvised weapons/devices" we get emails on.

It is such a problem that several cities have now created "Policies" for how to check for scene safety. I am not sure how I totally feel about this.

Sometimes policies are a double edged sword. They are great to make a person "work within" but what happens if a person accidentally violates this policy and gets attacked?

Can that City/Service then distance themself from the victim?

Like I have said before.....this is a sublject that isn't important to you........until it is IMPORTANT TO YOU!

 

[Summit]

Police officers carry guns, tasers, and nightsticks.

EMS carries narcotics.

Who would you beat on?

 

[vtemti]

It is sad to say, but no matter how thorough any safety policies/protocols have been thought out or how well they are followed, there will always be those instances of a scene going sour after it has been determined to be safe. For this reason we must always be on our guard. We are taught that our own safety is priority and we need to protect ourselves even if that means distancing ourselves until the appropriate help arrives.

 

[coloradoemt]

I would be curious as to where this data was collected. I work in a very busy system where the riff-raff of the world run rampant. I have yet to hear of any of my co-workers getting assaulted by anyone. I have had a few drunks etc. try a few tactics with me but unsuccessfully. Scene safety is a good idea for a reason but I rate getting pts into the back of my rig and rolling as quickly as possible right up there with it.

 

[DT4EMS]

Some of the previous numbers talk about one city having three assaults per day.

There was an article in EMS magazine. I am at wok so I cona't give you the link right now......

As far as the "New Data" it hasn't been officially released yet. Trust me when it is I will post it here.

I am not the one who gathered this particular info. I was contacted by him because of what I do.

But it is enought that he is working under a federal grant on the subject of EMS providers being attacked in the field.

 

[TTLWHKR]

Originally posted by Summit@Jul 31 2005, 01:18 AM
Police officers carry guns, tasers, and nightsticks.

EMS carries narcotics.

Who would you beat on?

Yeah, but most of the time they end up picking on the ambulances that don't carry narcotics. We always carried a Percocet bottle filled with filed down yellow PEZ in one of our cabinets in case some druggie attacked us. This way we would get out alive, and he would be think he got what he wanted. The tough part was sitting there making the PEZ looks like real pills and not eating them. B/c PEZ are addicting...


edit - spelling mistake :angry:

 

[DT4EMS]

Originally posted by TTLWHKR+Jul 31 2005, 03:25 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (TTLWHKR @ Jul 31 2005, 03:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin-Summit@Jul 31 2005, 01:18 AM
Police officers carry guns, tasers, and nightsticks.

EMS carries narcotics.

Who would you beat on?

Yeah, but most of the time they end up picking on the ambulances that don't carry narcotics. We always carried a Percocet bottle filled with filed down yellow PEZ in one of our cabinets in case some druggie attacked us. This way we would get out alive, and he would be think he got what he wanted. The tough part was sitting there making the PEZ looks like real pills and not eating them. B/c PEZ are addicting...


edit - spelling mistake :angry: [/b][/quote]
Bwahahaha!!! Now that is AWESOME!! I love it!!

Can I share that one?

 

[Luno]

Safety cuts into profits. Pure and simple. If you think public service is any different, show me the Fire/EMS chief that pays for safety training out of their own paycheck. On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB. There were times I had to put down the future patient because they were taking it to the FFs or cops. It's no cake walk, scene safety? Non-existant, don't kid yourself. You do the job because you love the job, and you can afford to. I still love the job, I just can't afford to live that poorly anymore.

 

[DT4EMS]

Originally posted by Luno@Jul 31 2005, 08:11 PM
Safety cuts into profits. Pure and simple. If you think public service is any different, show me the Fire/EMS chief that pays for safety training out of their own paycheck. On the rigs, I carried, ankle holster or IWB. There were times I had to put down the future patient because they were taking it to the FFs or cops. It's no cake walk, scene safety? Non-existant, don't kid yourself. You do the job because you love the job, and you can afford to. I still love the job, I just can't afford to live that poorly anymore.

You nailed it! Man did you nail it!!

So here is my arguement to the admin that says "It costs too much."

I say ''How much do you think you will pay when a paramedic is hurt and you failed to train?"

or

" How big of a check will your service write because you failed to train and a medic/EMT injured a patient by using too high of a level of force to defend themself?"

 

[TTLWHKR]

Originally posted by DT4EMS+Jul 31 2005, 06:48 PM--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (DT4EMS @ Jul 31 2005, 06:48 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by TTLWHKR@Jul 31 2005, 03:25 PM
<!--QuoteBegin-Summit

@Jul 31 2005, 01:18 AM
Police officers carry guns, tasers, and nightsticks.

EMS carries narcotics.

Who would you beat on?

Yeah, but most of the time they end up picking on the ambulances that don't carry narcotics. We always carried a Percocet bottle filled with filed down yellow PEZ in one of our cabinets in case some druggie attacked us. This way we would get out alive, and he would be think he got what he wanted. The tough part was sitting there making the PEZ looks like real pills and not eating them. B/c PEZ are addicting...


edit - spelling mistake :angry:

Bwahahaha!!! Now that is AWESOME!! I love it!!

Can I share that one? [/b][/quote]
Sure. If it helps save lives, it's worth the ten minutes.

You need:

Pill bottle w/ some highly popular narcotic medication on the label. 50 PEZ. Nail File.

 

[Luno]

DT, I'll put it back to you, from the admins, "it doesn't matter, I don't have to write the check, insurance does." Well, won't that make your premiums go up? "Yes, but that can be rolled into the levy, and it's easier to take a bill to the public to keep their EMS/Fire Service, than to take a proposed spending." Well, isn't the safety of your employees worth the money? "What money, everything is already spent for this fiscal year, maybe next year."

And to answer your next question, yes, very bitter.

 

[usafmedic45]

The reason for the high numbers that might not jive could also be a skewing, intentional or unintentional (meaning that the original source is inaccurate), on the part of the original poster who is in the business of training EMS providers on safety issues. :unsure:

 

[Wingnut]

Originally posted by Luno@Aug 1 2005, 12:56 AM
DT, I'll put it back to you, from the admins, "it doesn't matter, I don't have to write the check, insurance does." Well, won't that make your premiums go up? "Yes, but that can be rolled into the levy, and it's easier to take a bill to the public to keep their EMS/Fire Service, than to take a proposed spending." Well, isn't the safety of your employees worth the money? "What money, everything is already spent for this fiscal year, maybe next year."

And to answer your next question, yes, very bitter.

I see this in our system , and even to an extent in the sherrif's dept. It's really up to ourselves and teamwork with our co-workers to ensure our own safety. My favorite tip I learned in "scene safety" is even if your on a 90y/o F cp call living alone with a cat, always leave yourself an open path to the door.

I worry about my husband at work all the time, and when I can afford to be an EMT he's going to worry about me. It's another one of those things that just sucks and pisses me off if I think about it too much.

 

[DT4EMS]

Originally posted by usafmedic45@Aug 1 2005, 01:19 AM
The reason for the high numbers that might not jive could also be a skewing, intentional or unintentional (meaning that the original source is inaccurate), on the part of the original poster who is in the business of training EMS providers on safety issues. :unsure:

The Chicago Sun-Times reported that employees of the city's fire/EMS department are assaulted as often as three times a day, though most attacks go unreported.8
"The most common attack is verbal. We're always called a bunch of profane names," says Bob Scates, Director of Emergency Medical Services for the Chicago Fire Fighters Union, Local 2 of the International Association of Fire Fighters. "But the assaults are getting more physical. Last week, one of our ambulances was shot at by a 14-year-old kid who wanted to shoot out one of its lights. People hit our paramedics. We had an ambulance commander attacked by a patient who was on PCP—he got his arm broken."



THis is from an old article in EMS magazine. If 1 city has three per day, with "Most attacks go unreported" How many cities are in the US and the UK?

Like I said.........I didn't make up the numbers. When it can be published they will be.

How many years have you spent on the "Civilian Streets"? I know that you are a very educated man. But surely you wouldn't say that I am skewing numbers to increase my business........

I am married with 5 children. I work full-time as a police officer and part time as a medic. I have "given away" more material than I ever charged for. So if I can provide a service AND make some money for it...........isn't that the way ANY business works?

I own a karate school where 50% of the "kids" I teach are low income. Most have not paid for over a year. I do it to be a role model so we don't deal with them on the street. I have never asked for anything in return. I have spent the majority of my adult life in public service. My kids don't wear all the brand name clothes, we don't drive fancy cars, but I am proud of what I do......even though financially they suffer. So I do take offense, when I have done anything within these posts to deceive, or attempt otherwise to take peoples money.

I have without a doubt poured over a thousand hours of my "family time" into a course that has EMT's and Medics giving standing ovations when it is done. That means something.

The other thing is I have been approached and told "You can make a lot of money with this."

My reply was "I would just like to be able to provide for my family doing something I love." So, If I can teach EMS or Law Enforcement full time I will be happy so long as it provides for my family. I have paid my dues on the street.

I have already made the comment that if this course goes nowhere, at least I did something about it instead of just complaining about the problem.

BTW USAF........as soon as I am given permission, the numbers will come to you first.

 

[usafmedic45]

I figured you were relying upon number given to you part and parcel from a source- I didn't figure there was any malfeasence on your part. But I do think those numbers are exceedingly high- if you're including the "verbal assaults" then your numbers are going to be frighteningly high. I'd estimate that 40-50% of EMS patients call us some sort of nasty name. If you define that as an assault then I think that clarifies your numbers a great deal. I don't consider an assault an assault unless they tried or did inflict physical harm.

 

[DT4EMS]

I am definately with you on "name calling" the part where the law reads it is an assualt is with words like "I'm gonna kick/shott/stab/puch etc....".

An important part too is "perception at the time". What was the perception of the person claiming they were assaulted at the time of the incident?

For instance,
A guy stands across the street with a baseball bat and yells "If you come over here, I am gonna kick your a#$" The problem is means and opportunity. He has the means to strike with the bat, but no opportunity. No assault took place.

If that same person started walking toward you, staring at you, and never said a word, that IS an assault IF the person claiming they were assaulted "perceived" the threat as real.

I have used the "What did you do before EMS" line to drive this point home.

If you worked as a fast food joint and a guy comes in doped up and says he is gonna kill you because his burger was cold...........would someone report that to the police?

What if it was a bank? What would happen then?

I understand that it happens. I have been there, done that. I refuse to accept that it is "a part of the job".

The reason I am here, on these forums is to generate awareness and recognition that it is a serious problem.

There was a post in another forum of a medic recently shot shortly after knocking on the door where he went to an "abdominal pain" call.

I didn't see that on CNN or Fox. If it would have been a pizza delivery guy that would have been all over the news.

PS, Thanks for the clarification USAF!

 

[Jon]

I've been spit at and shouted at. I've been called names. I guess that would be assualt, but I would NEVER get through my charts if I had to write IR's up for every trunk patient who spit on me...

Jon

 

[DT4EMS]

OK USAFMEDIC I told you the numbers would be out soon, and dang........

700,000 Assaults anually.


Those are the numbers ............ The Boston Herald put them out in a story yesterday!

 

[Luno]

Assault by WA State law is defined someone causing bodily harm or injury or placing someone in fear of bodily harm or injury. Can statistics be skewed? Of course, does that mean that attacks don't happen, or are always avoidable? Absolutely not. Mulder had it right, "The Truth is Out There."

 

[DT4EMS]

Originally posted by Luno@Aug 3 2005, 07:56 PM
Assault by WA State law is defined someone causing bodily harm or injury or placing someone in fear of bodily harm or injury. Can statistics be skewed? Of course, does that mean that attacks don't happen, or are always avoidable? Absolutely not. Mulder had it right, "The Truth is Out There."

Luno, I love it when someone makes an "educated response". In Missouri and several other states it reads primarily the same. A Third Degree Assault in Missouri is also placing a person in "apprehension" or punching them in the mouth.

So unless we have each and every one documented, it will be difficult to tell which was a threat vs. actual hands on.

Great point though!!