Should EMS/Fire be armed?

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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I could not bring myself to use a weapon against an individual who essentially showed up for a fistfight.
sure... if you end up in a fistfight and chose to use lethal force, that's not going to look good. what if the individual shows up armed with a bat? or knife? or firearm? and he planned to use it on you because you were the wrong skin color (making up a situation that you can't talk your way out of)

The only PT that ever planted an effective impact on me was a left hook to the jaw while we were lowering the Model-30 gurney. It's pretty difficult to protect yourself while occupied with a handful of stretcher.
Apparently, you worked in either a slow area, a very nice area, or had a short career, because I know plenty of EMS personnel who were assaulted on the job, some with career ending injuries. There are multiple documented occurrences. Or maybe you just got lucky during your career.
It finally became a matter of deciding that, because we went into areas like courthouses, jails, mental health facilities, and "gun-free" zones, the firearm would be a liability.
So.... jails and some mental health facilities are "secure" facilities. no one carries firearms in the doors, including LEOs. there is no reason why an armed EMS worker couldn't secure their firearm just like a LEO. The same legal exception for PD could be made for EMS in a court house (and i think that's more policy than law, but I could be wrong). and Gun free zones..... well, freel free to educate yourself on gun free zones: Most Mass Shootings Happen In Gun Free Zones
gunfreezone2.jpg

I think you need to look up the definition of liability, because you definitely aren't using it well.
 

GMCmedic

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I could not bring myself to use a weapon against an individual who essentially showed up for a fistfight.

While the optics would be bad, a quick Google search shows at least 5 instances of persons dying from a punch, just on the first page.
 

Seirende

Washed Up Paramedic/ EMT Dropout
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While the optics would be bad, a quick Google search shows at least 5 instances of persons dying from a punch, just on the first page.

Australia, or at least parts of Australia, has/have a "one-punch law" relating to such deaths
 

CarSevenFour

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While the optics would be bad, a quick Google search shows at least 5 instances of persons dying from a punch, just on the first page.
Of course, you can be killed by a single impact injury. Snap of the neck from a harsh blow to the head, punch to chest or abdomen, sure. The most dangerous is the sucker punch. But, so what? From this short reply, it's difficult to see what you mean. Guy hits me, I pull out a gun and shoot him because 5 guys once died from a mutual combat blow? Lawyers arrive by the busload. newspapers write, "EMT brings gun to a fistfight. 1 person dead." So, what's your point? A Google search using the parameters "people killed in a fistfight" would naturally bring up a heck of a lot more than 5 stories about people getting punched to death in a fistfight. It wouldn't be a very good Google search engine NOT to deliver what you asked for. Right? I would say your retort needs more work, Think critically. Avoid confirmation bias.
 

CarSevenFour

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sure... if you end up in a fistfight and chose to use lethal force, that's not going to look good. what if the individual shows up armed with a bat? or knife? or firearm? and he planned to use it on you because you were the wrong skin color (making up a situation that you can't talk your way out of)


Apparently, you worked in either a slow area, a very nice area, or had a short career, because I know plenty of EMS personnel who were assaulted on the job, some with career ending injuries. There are multiple documented occurrences. Or maybe you just got lucky during your career.

So.... jails and some mental health facilities are "secure" facilities. no one carries firearms in the doors, including LEOs. there is no reason why an armed EMS worker couldn't secure their firearm just like a LEO. The same legal exception for PD could be made for EMS in a court house (and i think that's more policy than law, but I could be wrong). and Gun free zones..... well, freel free to educate yourself on gun free zones: Most Mass Shootings Happen In Gun Free Zones
gunfreezone2.jpg

I think you need to look up the definition of liability, because you definitely aren't using it well.
You respond to an emergency in a courtroom. "Oh, wait, we need to stop by security first so I can stash my gun." Then you load up, CPR in progress..."Oh, wait, we need to stop by security so I can pick up my gun." Your partner, who is a lot smarter than you has had enough of this, "Let's go! We'll come back later and pick up your pea shooter." Off you go, it gets busy, your gun's locked up at the courthouse. Maybe you run another call on the back-to-back and never get your gun because some guy punched you out on a call and you're now in the hospital with a career-ending injury. Because you didn't have your gun. So what's your point? I can play "What if?" all day.
 

CarSevenFour

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I thought the post was pretty well thought out. I also enjoyed the DT4EMS video.

Personally, I just don't see the point. I think we do enter dangerous situations sometimes, but to the point of needing a gun? I've been pretending to be a paramedic for over 5 years now and was an EMT for 5 years before that. In a decade, I don't think I've ever needed a gun or would have found it useful on a call. I don't know anyone that has. I imagine the same is true for most of you. It's to that point that it is like saying I need pilot training just in case an air ambulance has to make an emergency landing due to a sick pilot, they call us to attend to the pilot, and then I decide to be the pilot to fly the sick pilot to a hospital. It's just like yeh... maybe that would be useful? But kinda unlikely. I'd make a terrible pilot too. Anyways, I just don't see the point. I don't think it would improve my safety. I think it would be beyond rarely utilize and more likely lead to a lot of problems like being incorrectly used or getting the paramedic shock. Heck, even police officers seem to have a problem with it, haha. Give us tools to be mechanics incase the ambulance break down on the way to the call or during transport so we can fix it. Probably would be a better idea than giving us a gun and more likely to be useful.

I was originally gonna say that giving a gun to paramedics is like giving paramedic training to firefighters. Like that would work out well... o_O
I enjoyed your post, that medic comment got a good laugh out of me, brilliant! In my service as a BLS EMT (Paramedic training in Orange County, CA was closed to private ambulance crews at the time, only firefighters need apply). We went on a lot of bad 9-1-1 contract calls in the 1970s and I honestly felt the need for more training and the tools needed to help a full spectrum of people without waiting on a medic unit to arrive. It was up to BLS to handle calls on the fly when it got busy and no FFPMs were available. A system that actually promotes advanced life support AND routine "scoop and run" is crazy and politically stupid, IMO. I would have traded my Smith and Wesson 5 shot .38 in a heartbeat just to be able to defibrillate or provide more definitive care in an emergency without politics and firefighter unions getting in my way. My solution? I joined the fire service and became a certified EMD dispatcher in my second career until landing back in the ambulance much later (FD EMT, go figure...). I survived, and thrived, in the ambulance just fine without a gun.
 

CarSevenFour

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you missed the point of that... using that logic, we should take away all CCW permits, and require people to give up their guns, because the vast majority of the CCW population will never fire their weapon...

like surgical airways, any incidents involving paramedics drawing a firearm will be super high risk and super rare. once a year nationwide maybe. But as https://nypost.com/2020/12/18/man-shoots-two-arkansas-paramedics-dies-after-one-returns-fire/ demonstrates, that once a year incident does occur, and the fact that the paramedic shot back likely saved the life of him and his partner. It's no longer hypothetical, or in theory, or whatif, it's actually happened (and there are other incidents reported by the news of paramedics being shot and some killed by gunfire).

Georgia, Kansas, Ohio, and New York passed legislation in 2017 allowing EMTs and paramedics to carry on the job. In 2019, West Virginia's legislation did the same thing. and Alabama, California, Kansas, Kentucky, Mississippi, Minnesota, Texas, and Wisconsin were considering it. Have there been any reports of EMS personnel shooting people? any accidental discharges? It's been 3 years. Everyone is worried about all the bad things happening... have they actually happened?

3 years with no issues, and at least one instance of an armed paramedic saving the life of him and his partner... And I bet that paramedic and his partner's families were very grateful that the paramedic was armed; it likely prevented a double LODD.

Does two lives saved justify it, especially if it costs no innocent lives? That's the same reason I support the cops keeping their weapons... even if they never fire their weapon, if it saves a cop's life, doesn't that make it worth it?
In the meantime, you likely now have 2 critical patients and the one you responded to is lying there from whatever prompted the call in the first place and you just shot a guy. Handguns are actually puny self-defense tools compared to a more effective rifle or carbine, that's why the police empty the full magazine, so likely your assailant is bleeding and still alive but incapacitated. Hopefully, I can make bank on that. Buy some stock in publically traded gun manufacturers because specialized EMS Firearms, "Tactical AND Practical, the weapon for any emergency!" will be the advertising mantra for a whole new class of handguns. Maybe a "don't mess with us" picture in the ad showing two burly EMTs standing with arms across the chest and legs akimbo, EMS gun grip poking out of their "tactical" vests, "You're on firm ground with Smith & Wesson!" More crap to stash in the swag bag at the EMS conference. Oh, in this political climate, do not shoot any person of color lest we start seeing a new "defund EMS" movement arise out of the ashes.
 

Fezman92

NJ and PA EMT
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Hopefully, I can make bank on that. Buy some stock in publically traded gun manufacturers because specialized EMS Firearms, "Tactical AND Practical, the weapon for any emergency!" will be the advertising mantra for a whole new class of handguns. Maybe a "don't mess with us" picture in the ad showing two burly EMTs standing with arms across the chest and legs akimbo, EMS gun grip poking out of their "tactical" vests, "You're on firm ground with Smith & Wesson!" More crap to stash in the swag bag at the EMS conference. Oh, in this political climate, do not shoot any person of color lest we start seeing a new "defund EMS" movement arise out of the ashes.
What the hell are you going on about? Most of this reads like taticool cringe and your last sentence is in amazingly bad taste.
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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What the hell are you going on about? Most of this reads like taticool cringe and your last sentence is in amazingly bad taste.
to be honest, I am just going to ignore him and hope he goes away. most of his posts aren't contributing anything useful to this topic, and are painting him in a very poor light.
 

ffemt8978

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to be honest, I am just going to ignore him and hope he goes away. most of his posts aren't contributing anything useful to this topic, and are painting him in a very poor light.
Useful or not, they do present an aspect of this discussion that can't be glossed over. If EMS were to be armed, what is to be done about the tacticfools who would join?

Even if all the other obstacles to arming EMS were overcome, I doubt this one could be. That presents the insurmountable argument against it because nothing effective could be done to prevent those types from slipping through the cracks and setting back the profession's reputation decades.
 

Fezman92

NJ and PA EMT
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I'd say that we should do psych evals but not every place would do that.
 

GMCmedic

Forum Deputy Chief
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That presents the insurmountable argument against it because nothing effective could be done to prevent those types from slipping through the cracks and setting back the profession's reputation decades.

Up until about 13 months ago, you could do what every other armed profession does and just ignore it.
 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
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Useful or not, they do present an aspect of this discussion that can't be glossed over. If EMS were to be armed, what is to be done about the tacticfools who would join?

Even if all the other obstacles to arming EMS were overcome, I doubt this one could be. That presents the insurmountable argument against it because nothing effective could be done to prevent those types from slipping through the cracks and setting back the profession's reputation decades.
Are the tactifools currently law-abiding CCW holders? do they meet the legal requirements to own and carry a firearm off duty? The thinking I have is if you carry off duty, you can carry on duty, as you don't lose your competence the moment you step on the ambulance, and just because they are on the ambulance doesn't make them any more or less tactifools.

So it's not "here is your scope, here is your glock;" that means those idiots who carry off duty 24/7 will still be idiots if they are carrying on the truck, but they are legally permitted to carry a firearm. The provider is still responsible for their firearm, and should face the legal consequences of using it inappropriately, should they chose to carry. And I'm sure there are a few cops in the US who not only shouldn't be cops, but shouldn't be allowed to carry a firearm, but that doesn't mean all cops should not carry. and to @GMCmedic's point, I don't think we should ignore it, but rather accept it as the rare exception and not the norm. Or at least gather enough data to determine that's it's more common than we originally thought.

If an EMS provider wants to wear a load bearing vest (I've heard they are better for LEO than a duty belt, and the studies support that https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31280798/ so the same might apply to EMS), or kevlar vest for protection, to be honest, I don't care. as it reflects more on them than me. it's their money, spend it as they see fit. yes, it's embarrassing, but we can all collectively roll our eyes at that person.
 

CarSevenFour

Forum Crew Member
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^^^ This is how you take a controversial topic and support your viewpoint on it.
This is how you muddy up the waters further.
Lots of false equivalencies here...for starters, to be lethal, knives require a lot more investment in intention and motion....that and knife blades don't go through walls. There is a threshold that knives just don't pass compared to a pistol.

And no one gives any drug at the request of the police...what they give is 100% on them...

...finally, when an ambulance hits and kills anyone in the course of a call or not, the circumstances of the accident is investigated and blame assigned.

That said, routine arming of EMS personnel is way more trouble than it's worth....IMO
Th
What the hell are you going on about? Most of this reads like taticool cringe and your last sentence is in amazingly bad taste.
Do I have to draw you a picture, maybe an emoji so you can tell sarc from tacti-cool? Just watch, it will become a marketing ploy and you're gonna see a lot of gun industry marketeers make bank of a whole new customer base for small firearms, the EMT. Setting back the industry, you gotta be kidding. You are dinosaurs in the EMS world and don't realize it yet. You'll see exactly that when the next generation grows up and takes your place. EMS never did have much regard for those who served in the past, Mr. Fezman92.
 

Fezman92

NJ and PA EMT
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Given your past posting history it’s hard to tell if you’re being serious or not.
 

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