Should EMS/Fire be armed?

[EpiEMS]

This is probably going to be a disjointed response, but here goes.

TEMS and other tactical sorts of folks aside, from a management perspective, I find it hard to believe that an agency concerned about liability or optics/PR would allow providers to concealed carry.

Practically speaking, no scene is 100% safe. A good agency policy would require EMS to stage until police respond for calls that can plausibly involve acts violence.

I am not anti-gun. However, I don’t believe prehospital providers need to carry a firearm while on duty and since this has been circulating through the EMS world, I’ve yet to hear a compelling argument that will convince me to change my mind.

^This

 

[Peak]

If firearm retention is a primary argument then should we allow EMS to carry knives?

 

[CCCSD]

Stage. Just like FD does...no matter what they tell you they think they do...

 

[Fezman92]

weapons and explosives

Explosives? Like grenades and TNT?

 

[CCCSD]

Why would there need to be a different set of laws for a non-LEO who has a valid concealed carry permit to carry while working in EMS than when they are living the rest of their lives, particularly with use of force?

If a 6’5” 300 pound build man tries to strangle me and I’ll in genuine fear for my life why would it make a legal difference if I was attacked while buying lottery tickets at a gas station or transporting him for a paronychia at 3am?

Unless you are planning to use EMS for some form of security or law enforcement why would they be held to that expectation?

CCW isn’t automatic in every state.
OC isn’t legal in every state.

What standard of training would you satisfy?
Govt EMS would require legislation to allow carrying of firearms.
What insurance carrier would allow carrying of firearms by EMS?
What is your Use of Force policy? Did you try to deescalate? Do you carry LL weapons to employ first?

Thats just the start...

BTW, I hope you have an excellent insurance policy with at least 1 Million coverage, and are prepared to be booked into jail should you murder a patient.
Are you ready for that? Your family ready to lose everything?

 

[Jim37F]

I'm pretty pro 2A, I would prob carry CCW if my state didn't abhor that concept.

At work though... eh probably not.

I could write a whole paragraph/essay/rant...

but I think I can boil it down to saying that this IS an industry where we are so worried about liability that it's drilled into our heads that we'll get sued over so many little things, that people will document "Secured patient to gurney with straps 5x" under the belief they will get sued and lose because they didn't write that one sentence in a PCR (amongst soooo many other examples)

Adding firearms just doesn't mix well, like at all with that IMHO.

 

[Comfort Care]

Nope, wait for PD to clear the scene. If its sketchy,, FD has swat medics ready to go. Can you imagine seeing [2) 18yr old fresh EMTs with Glock 40s on the hips . haha

 

[Peak]

CCW isn’t automatic in every state.
OC isn’t legal in every state.

What standard of training would you satisfy?
Govt EMS would require legislation to allow carrying of firearms.
What insurance carrier would allow carrying of firearms by EMS?
What is your Use of Force policy? Did you try to deescalate? Do you carry LL weapons to employ first?

Thats just the start...

BTW, I hope you have an excellent insurance policy with at least 1 Million coverage, and are prepared to be booked into jail should you murder a patient.
Are you ready for that? Your family ready to lose everything?

Right, so should we ban EMS from carrying knives? What if the patient takes it from them and kills someone? What if the EMS provider used it in defense, are they prepared to be booked into jail? What if they give ketamine at the request of the police, are they prepared to be sued for millions and lose everything?

What about running code and you hit a car and kill them, is EMS prepared to be charged for manslaughter for that?

 

[FiremanMike]

@DrParasite - I’m going to need to think for a bit so that I can articulate my thoughts on why I feel it’s different. I don’t want to short change my response to you..

@Peak - in my mind, the difference between a knife and a firearm is that knives are much less intrusive in appearance than a gun. A knife clip in a pocket doesn‘t quite stand out the way a firearm in a holster does. Lastly, and this is again my opinion, unless we’re talking about a straight blade knife sheathed to your belt (I.e. ka-bar) a knife grab from your pocket is much easier to fend off than a firearm grab..

 

[DrParasite]

For the record, I am undecided on this issue, which is why I differ to the experts who have done research and published on this topic.

I am a CCW supporter (in theory anyway, I don't carry 24/7) and do believe that everyone should go home at the end of every shift. And if I am faced with a lethal threat caused by another person, who may end my life, call me selfish if you want, but I want to have as many tools as I can to ensure I go home to my family.

TEMS and other tactical sorts of folks aside, from a management perspective, I find it hard to believe that an agency concerned about liability or optics/PR would allow providers to concealed carry.

My confusion is (and this is entirely ignorance on my part) is why some people who carry 24/7 when off duty, have issues carrying while on the ambulance. Yes, I understand training, liability, etc, but does those change whether you are in your POV or if you are in an ambulance? All the fear-mongering (lawsuits, media, criminal investigation) doesn't change, depending on if you are duty or not, so while those are valid concerns, they apply in all situations, not just ones when on the ambulance.

And since you mentioned optics/PR, what would optics/PR be for an EMS agency that had its crew hospitalized by an attacker? or ambushed by a bad guy? or if you were that EMS manager, what would you tell the wife of a paramedic who was the victim of an armed robbery, who was shot by a bad guy for his narcs? What would the optics be on that one? Or does the PR say that the public will accept a few dead and injured EMS providers, in exchange for feeling safer? BTW, I know PR is part of your MBA program, so I am asking for your expert advice on this topic.

Practically speaking, no scene is 100% safe. A good agency policy would require EMS to stage until police respond for calls that can plausibly involve acts violence.

I am all for verbal de-escalation, I don't know of anyone who wants to shoot another person (whether you be LEO, EMS, or civilian, and if you do, then you shouldn't be allowed to have a firearm), and I 100% support retreating if a scene goes downhill. What if that isn't an option? What if you become the hostage? I've been told (and correct me if I'm wrong) that LEOs carry firearms to protect themselves from a lethal threat, not to protect others. In fact, case law says that POLICE HAVE NO DUTY TO PROTECT YOU, FEDERAL COURT AFFIRMS YET AGAIN. However, not every injured paramedic occurs at a "traditional" potentially unsafe scene, nor are LEOs sent on every EMS call nationwide, especially not before EMS arrives.

Lastly, everyone stop with the hyperbole that having EMS armed means they will be entering unsafe scenes. No one has said that. few people have implied that (other than active shooter situations). The belief is, if you have a firearm, you will use it to defend yourself from a (potential) life threat caused by someone else. That's it. You should still attempt to verbally de-escalate the situation, and escape, but when all other options fail... well, how easily could https://abcnews.go.com/US/gunman-held-firefighters-hostage-georgia-dead/story?id=18927171 resulted in 4 dead firefighters?

 

[DrParasite]

CCW isn’t automatic in every state.
OC isn’t legal in every state.

very true, and very fair point. if your state doesn't allow CCW, than it's a moot point.

What standard of training would you satisfy?
Govt EMS would require legislation to allow carrying of firearms.

what is the current standard for civilians to carry? why does your training become inadequate the moment you step on the ambulance?

What insurance carrier would allow carrying of firearms by EMS?
What is your Use of Force policy? Did you try to deescalate? Do you carry LL weapons to employ first?

How does this work for civilians who carry? use of force is a great question, but isn't that more of an internal policy question? you might get fired if you shoot someone, but you will be alive... vs still being employed and being dead. but at least you followed your agency's policy.

Thats just the start...

BTW, I hope you have an excellent insurance policy with at least 1 Million coverage, and are prepared to be booked into jail should you murder a patient.
Are you ready for that? Your family ready to lose everything?

Educate me on this one... don't the same risks apply to someone who has a CCW? doesn't matter if you are on the ambulance or not, all those things can happen should you need to shoot someone to defend your life

NO ONE is saying when you graduate EMT school, here is your stethoscope, here is your glock. At least I hope not. I guess my other question is why is the current CCW training in adequate the moment you step on the ambulance? And if it is inadequate (which I would argue that it is), than it should be raised, but it is (like it or not) the current standard for non-LEOs.

 

[FiremanMike]

very true, and very fair point. if your state doesn't allow CCW, than it's a moot point.

what is the current standard for civilians to carry? why does your training become inadequate the moment you step on the ambulance?

How does this work for civilians who carry? use of force is a great question, but isn't that more of an internal policy question? you might get fired if you shoot someone, but you will be alive... vs still being employed and being dead. but at least you followed your agency's policy.

Educate me on this one... don't the same risks apply to someone who has a CCW? doesn't matter if you are on the ambulance or not, all those things can happen should you need to shoot someone to defend your life

NO ONE is saying when you graduate EMT school, here is your stethoscope, here is your glock. At least I hope not. I guess my other question is why is the current CCW training in adequate the moment you step on the ambulance? And if it is inadequate (which I would argue that it is), than it should be raised, but it is (like it or not) the current standard for non-LEOs.

Just a quick note from this post

The rules are different for public safety professionals, not only legally but in the court of public opinion (especially in the current climate). In addition, current CCW training really has more to do with the legal aspects of carrying than the actual mental preparation for everything involved in carrying and use of force.

From your question to me earlier..

First, to the perspective of the difference between day to day CCW, it comes down to your role in a situation. When in street clothes as a civilian, not only is my weapon concealed, but I have no duty or responsibility to inject myself into a situation. I can tactically insert myself if/when it is necessary, I don't have to show my cards from the get go, and no one is really looking at me. Once the uniform goes on (cop or fire/ems), I pretty much have to be involved in the situation, and everyone is looking to me as the authority over the scene.

As to why it's different in the police uniform from the medic uniform, I'm really not sure I can 100% articulate my thoughts on the matter. It's just a completely different mindset between the two jobs. A lot of the scenarios you described which would distract a cop are still cop things, and when doing cop things, cops think like cops.

Early on in my foray into law enforcement, I considered my gun to be a constant, conscious distraction. I was 100% aware of it 100% of the time and I was always worried about a gun grab. I spent hours mentally and physically preparing for that event, to the point now where I believe it has mostly moved from conscious thought to subconscious thought. I am still aware of my weapon, body position, and an approximate location of everyone in the room, but it does not consume as much of my active thinking as it used to.

I think at this point in my career (22 years EMS, 12 years part-time LE), I could possibly pull off carrying as the medic in charge, although I'm still not sure of that. There are just too many times when EMS requires extensive focus (sometimes even hyper focus), and I just personally feel that having that gun sitting there on your hip like a big billboard means that EMS will distract from weapon retention at the same time weapon retention will distract from EMS, and then neither gets 100% of your best effort. The items that cause cops to hyper focus are generally violent in nature and your weapon is relevant in those moments of focus.

 

[DrParasite]

First, to the perspective of the difference between day to day CCW, it comes down to your role in a situation. When in street clothes as a civilian, not only is my weapon concealed, but I have no duty or responsibility to inject myself into a situation. I can tactically insert myself if/when it is necessary, I don't have to show my cards from the get go, and no one is really looking at me. Once the uniform goes on (cop or fire/ems), I pretty much have to be involved in the situation, and everyone is looking to me as the authority over the scene.

Why? Fire and EMS are not law enforcement, even if they are armed, so they have no requirement to get involved in a non-fire or non-EMS situation. Similarly, if I'm on the ambulance, and pull up to a house/car/brush fire, I have an extinguisher on my truck; doesn't mean I can (or should) go inside and put the fire out, but I should call the proper agency to do that.

Furthermore, do the same rules apply for non-unformed LEOs? Such as detectives, US marshals, parole officers, and the US Postal police? Many of them are in street clothes, often with a concealed holster. Maybe they are displaying their badge and cuffs, maybe not. Do they need to involve themselves in a situation? I don't know, I'm just asking.

I think at this point in my career (22 years EMS, 12 years part-time LE), I could possibly pull off carrying as the medic in charge, although I'm still not sure of that. There are just too many times when EMS requires extensive focus (sometimes even hyper focus), and I just personally feel that having that gun sitting there on your hip like a big billboard means that EMS will distract from weapon retention at the same time weapon retention will distract from EMS, and then neither gets 100% of your best effort. The items that cause cops to hyper focus are generally violent in nature and your weapon is relevant in those moments of focus.

Also, if you are off duty, with a CCW, does your firearm become a constant distraction? Does it prevent you from being able to focus on life in general? pay attention to the movie you are watching with the wife, helping kids with their HW, etc.

I think weapons retention is very important. For those unfamiliar, removing a gun from a cop's holster is not as simple as pulling it out, provided they have a holster with built in retention technology.

I don't think EMS should have a gun on their hip, because open carry can be an invitation to someone trying to take your weapon. And if anyone did advocate for them, I would hope they would mandate a retention holster. I would be more open to a concealed weapon, provided you have the appropriate level of training required to have a CCW permit.

 

[FiremanMike]

Why? Fire and EMS are not law enforcement, even if they are armed, so they have no requirement to get involved in a non-fire or non-EMS situation. Similarly, if I'm on the ambulance, and pull up to a house/car/brush fire, I have an extinguisher on my truck; doesn't mean I can (or should) go inside and put the fire out, but I should call the proper agency to do that.

Furthermore, do the same rules apply for non-unformed LEOs? Such as detectives, US marshals, parole officers, and the US Postal police? Many of them are in street clothes, often with a concealed holster. Maybe they are displaying their badge and cuffs, maybe not. Do they need to involve themselves in a situation? I don't know, I'm just asking.


Also, if you are off duty, with a CCW, does your firearm become a constant distraction? Does it prevent you from being able to focus on life in general? pay attention to the movie you are watching with the wife, helping kids with their HW, etc.

I think weapons retention is very important. For those unfamiliar, removing a gun from a cop's holster is not as simple as pulling it out, provided they have a holster with built in retention technology.

I don't think EMS should have a gun on their hip, because open carry can be an invitation to someone trying to take your weapon. And if anyone did advocate for them, I would hope they would mandate a retention holster. I would be more open to a concealed weapon, provided you have the appropriate level of training required to have a CCW permit.

I can't figure out how to break down quotes, used to be able to type in but I can't..

Anyhow - it's not that they must get involved in any particular situation other than the run that they are involved in, but if lethal force is used, they will be held to a different standard, that's what I mean.

As to your comment about non-uniformed LEOs, their ROE are closer to uniformed officers than EMS, where they would have a duty to intervene on incidents even if they are not assigned to those calls to begin with.

Off duty CCW used to be quite distracting to me, but over the years it has also moved into a more subconscious level of thought.

Side note - I consider weapons retention to go beyond just the actual moment of the fight over your weapon, but the all encompassing mental and physical preparation and action. I'm sure you're on the same page, just wanted to state it in case anyone was wondering.

My only comment on concealed for EMS is that due to the nature of our uniforms, concealed carry is very cumbersome and not conducive to rapid deployment, which is the exact scenario we're advocating for - "HOLY CRAP THIS WENT BAD QUICK I NEED A GUN IMMEDIATELY". Fiddle-f***ing to untuck your shirt or drop to an ankle holster in the moment that lethal force is needed is unlikely to end well..

I would imagine you are wondering if I feel the same about concealed carry when I'm off duty vs open carry.. I do not, because again, I can choose to engage when I'm not at a major tactical disadvantage..

 

[FiremanMike]

By the way - this is all my personal opinion, I don’t pretend to be a subject matter expert on EMS carrying weapons..

 

[CALEMT]

Also, if you are off duty, with a CCW, does your firearm become a constant distraction? Does it prevent you from being able to focus on life in general? pay attention to the movie you are watching with the wife, helping kids with their HW, etc.

Not that I’m advocating for either way but based on my own experience carrying concealed the first couple times were odd. You’re getting used to carrying a hidden firearm and that cumbersome feeling. Always wondering if you’re printing and always adjusting. Now it’s second nature and it feels natural. Driving my vehicles, doing projects outside, grocery shopping. It’s not a distraction at all, to me at least.

 

[ffemt8978]

Here's a question for those advocating EMS be armed? What do you plan on doing with your weapon when entering a facility that prohibits weapons (like a jail, school, hospitals in certain states) or you end up crossing state lines on a transfer?

Kind of hard to conceal a weapon from the patient when they watch you put it in or take it out of a lockbox.

 

[E tank]

Right, so should we ban EMS from carrying knives? What if the patient takes it from them and kills someone? What if the EMS provider used it in defense, are they prepared to be booked into jail? What if they give ketamine at the request of the police, are they prepared to be sued for millions and lose everything?

What about running code and you hit a car and kill them, is EMS prepared to be charged for manslaughter for that?

Lots of false equivalencies here...for starters, to be lethal, knives require a lot more investment in intention and motion....that and knife blades don't go through walls. There is a threshold that knives just don't pass compared to a pistol.

And no one gives any drug at the request of the police...what they give is 100% on them...

...finally, when an ambulance hits and kills anyone in the course of a call or not, the circumstances of the accident is investigated and blame assigned.

That said, routine arming of EMS personnel is way more trouble than it's worth....IMO

 

[Peak]

Here's a question for those advocating EMS be armed? What do you plan on doing with your weapon when entering a facility that prohibits weapons (like a jail, school, hospitals in certain states) or you end up crossing state lines on a transfer?

Kind of hard to conceal a weapon from the patient when they watch you put it in or take it out of a lockbox.

There is a zero percent chance I am responding to any jail. That being said it can get locked up in the narc box, and I wouldn’t transport an inmate without a officer that stays with the patient.

 

[ffemt8978]

There is a zero percent chance I am responding to any jail. That being said it can get locked up in the narc box, and I wouldn’t transport an inmate without a officer that stays with the patient.

Fine...instead of a jail substitute a local bar. Your patient imbibed a few too many and got into a brawl but is not under arrest. You can't carry your weapon into a bar, and removing it from the lock box after you load him may give him ideas.

The point isn't about specific areas that are off limits to carrying weapons, but about them in general. Some places it's illegal to bring weapons onto the property at all unless you're law enforcement.