Should EMS/Fire be armed?

ffemt8978

Forum Vice-Principal
Community Leader
10,133
909
113
I liked your original post better; more fitting. But good on you (or the mods) for the edit.
Good on him...I had nothing to do with it.
 

ffemt8978

Forum Vice-Principal
Community Leader
10,133
909
113
The shooting of a suspect in a Columbus OH hospital that while only tangentially related to this subject still raises some points that bear considering on this topic: namely use of firearms in a confined area and the effectiveness of quick searches for weapons.

CAUTION: video may be disturbing to some people

 

DrParasite

The fire extinguisher is not just for show
5,519
1,594
113
The shooting of a suspect in a Columbus OH hospital that while only tangentially related to this subject still raises some points that bear considering on this topic: namely use of firearms in a confined area and the effectiveness of quick searches for weapons.

CAUTION: video may be disturbing to some people

I'm not an LEO, but from an EMS perspective, here is a summary of what happened:
1) EMS was called for a person sleeping on a bench in Westerville Ohio
2) Westerville PD did a quick patdown, found nothing, and sent the patient to the hospital with the EMS crew.
3) Patient (who is being treated for some type of Overdose) was transported to an ER, and left the patient in the ER staff's hands.
4) After the call Westerville PD tells Columbus PD that one of their wanted is in the hospital. So Columbus PD sends two officers to pick him up.
5) Columbus PD is preparing to take him to the county jail, and they perform a more thorough search, finding something that raises concern around the patient's crotch
6) At this point, PD attempts to put the patient in handcuffs, but he's actively resisting... and reaches into his pants, a gunshot is heard, and then the officer who is trapped in the room with the suspect fires his weapon.
7) Hospital PD are called (assuming, since they are in different colored shirts), the suspect still refuses to show PD his hands, refusing to follow officer's commands. PD deploys a taser, suspect pulls out the gun (I am assuming, can't really tell) and he gets shot.

There is a lot to critique:
1) EMS transported a patient to the ER who was armed with a firearm (which, last I checked, was a gun-free zone). Lets also be real here: if you are the EMS crew, and he says his balls itch, are you going to stop him from scratching them?
2) Westerville PD searched the patient and didn't find the loaded firearm, and sent the armed person with EMS
3) the ER staff never made the patient change into a gown, which would have likely revealed the firearm. Similarly, Hospital security never checked the patient for weapons.
4) this could have ended much worse than it did, and I think it was by sheer dumb luck (I think the suspects gun jammed after the first shot) that none of the "good guys" were injured.

From a non-LEO perspective, I don't think anyone from Columbus PD or the Hospital PD did anything wrong.
 
Last edited:

ffemt8978

Forum Vice-Principal
Community Leader
10,133
909
113
I'm not an LEO, but from an EMS perspective, here is a summary of what happened:
1) EMS was called for a person sleeping on a bench in Westerville Ohio
2) Westerville PD did a quick patdown, found nothing, and sent the patient to the hospital with the EMS crew.
3) Patient (who is being treated for some type of Overdose) was transported to an ER, and left the patient in the ER staff's hands.
4) After the call Westerville PD tells Columbus PD that one of their wanted is in the hospital. So Columbus PD sends two officers to pick him up.
5) Columbus PD is preparing to take him to the county jail, and they perform a more thorough search, finding something that raises concern around the patient's crotch
6) At this point, PD attempts to put the patient in handcuffs, but he's actively resisting... and reaches into his pants, a gunshot is heard, and then the officer who is trapped in the room with the suspect fires his weapon.
7) Hospital PD are called (assuming, since they are in different colored shirts), the suspect still refuses to show PD his hands, refusing to follow officer's commands. PD deploys a taser, suspect pulls out the gun (I am assuming, can't really tell) and he gets shot.

There is a lot to critique:
1) EMS transported a patient to the ER who was armed with a firearm (which, last I checked, was a gun-free zone).
2) Westerville PD searched the patient and didn't find the loaded firearm, and sent the armed person with EMS
3) the ER staff never made the patient change into a gown, which would have likely revealed the firearm. Similarly, Hospital security never checked the patient for weapons.
4) this could have ended much worse than it did, and I think it was by sheer dumb luck (I think the suspects gun jammed after the first shot) that none of the "good guys" were injured.

From a non-LEO perspective, I don't think anyone from Columbus PD or the Hospital PD did anything wrong.
There is also the hospital staff member who tried to force his way into the room to treat the victim before he was secured and had to be physically moved out of the way by the cops.
 

FiremanMike

EMS Coordinator
748
368
63
My thought is pretty much what Parasite wrote. At the time of the shooting, everything seemed legit. I refuse to accept that we've now reached a point where cops can't shoot back when someone is actually shooting at them.

I am distressed that the gun wasn't found on scene.
 

ffemt8978

Forum Vice-Principal
Community Leader
10,133
909
113
My thought is pretty much what Parasite wrote. At the time of the shooting, everything seemed legit. I refuse to accept that we've now reached a point where cops can't shoot back when someone is actually shooting at them.

I am distressed that the gun wasn't found on scene.
I'm not all that sure the officers in thr first scene ever completed their pat down given how ancy he got then.
 

Capital

Forum Probie
11
3
3
Based on the interaction at the beginning of the video the patient was being brought in for a welfare check/mental health check. Our ED has had a few very close calls with guns/knives/SNAKES (alive!) snuck in by mental health patients. Our hospital got our security the wand-type metal detectors and lockers for all clothes/belongings for behavioral health patients. We no longer allow any wiggle room with these rules. If you're an ECO you are in handcuffs and have an armed LEO with you. If you are voluntary, you must comply with the rules - or there is the door.

On the ambulance as a volunteer I don't allow any patients to carry their purse/backpack/bags into the back. We lock that stuff up in an outside compartment, or you don't get transported. I'm fortunate that my driver (also my husband) is active LEO in the neighboring jurisdiction, and therefore armed. Our agency has it written in the SOP that only LEO's can carry on the ambulances. My husband chooses to conceal carry most of the time for a variety of reasons.

I enjoy helping people in the ED and on the ambulance, but I am going home at the end of my shift.
 

Akulahawk

EMT-P/ED RN
Community Leader
4,691
1,093
113
I'm not all that sure the officers in thr first scene ever completed their pat down given how ancy he got then.
From what I saw, the initial pat-down was cursory at best. I was taught that if you're going to do a weapons search, you do it the right way, the same way, every time. There are (a few) videos where a person gets arrested, taken to the local jail, and commits suicide during initial interrogation because everyone along the way didn't properly search for weapons.

Where I work, we very rarely find firearms but knives (including at least one machete) are pretty common. This is one big reason why I have LE always stay until the patient has been changed to paper scrubs.
 

hpclayto

Forum Probie
21
8
3
From what I saw, the initial pat-down was cursory at best. I was taught that if you're going to do a weapons search, you do it the right way, the same way, every time. There are (a few) videos where a person gets arrested, taken to the local jail, and commits suicide during initial interrogation because everyone along the way didn't properly search for weapons.

Where I work, we very rarely find firearms but knives (including at least one machete) are pretty common. This is one big reason why I have LE always stay until the patient has been changed to paper scrubs.
Are you talking about a pat down or a search? They’re two very different things and the requirements for each are also different.
 

Akulahawk

EMT-P/ED RN
Community Leader
4,691
1,093
113
Are you talking about a pat down or a search? They’re two very different things and the requirements for each are also different.
While I'm using these interchangeably, yes, they're two different things. It should be obvious from the context of my post that I was referring to a Terry frisk.
 

mazeofzin

Forum Ride Along
2
1
3
If you don't want to be mistaken for a cop, no. The more you look like a cop, the more likely you are to be mistaken for one. If an EDP sees someone coming up in a vehicle with flashing lights, wearing BDUs, boots, and a job shirt, and carrying a gun or a taser, they're gonna think your a cop. Meanwhile, if we come carrying medical gear or wearing an ANSI vest or turnout gear, no one is gonna think you're a cop
 

Top