Rant about how much volunteers are hurting our profession

[46Young]

Please start a union thread rather than hijacking everyone elses threads.

Done, and don't forget to answer my questions as above, on post #79.

 

[Melclin]

WHAT THE H#LL??????????????????????? I don't know what state YOU practice in but in my state and in the states I am familiar with the education and testing are the SAME regardless of whether you are paid or not.

In NYS the EMT B is a TWO SEMESTER COURSE followed by the same testing for all. My CC certification consisted of 16 ADDITIONAL credit hours and over 300 hours of clinical. Paramedic is another year with hundreds of hours added clinical. NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN PAID OR VOLUNTEER.

You are totally wrong in your view of "volunteers" we practice at the same level of professionalism as ANY paid person. Because we have a "social" conscious in addition to being professional is a PLUS and an ADDED benefit.

Take a second....read my sidebar next to my post....I'm from MELBOURNE, AUSTRALIA. The difference between paid and volunteer is very great. As I said a short course for the vollies, just like your EMT-Bs and a degree for the paid pros. With a 100 or so hours of training, nobody thinks the vollies are pros. So why are people whining about EMT-Bs not being considered pros?

I'm ganna reiterate my point. you can't go off to any two bit class for a few minutes and expect to become part of a profession.

Whining EMT-Bs:Get a real education and vollies won't be a problem. It's not the vollies fault that there isn't much too your job

 

[JPINFV]

Easiest way to end the volly mess? Require college level courses in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, and physicis (at least mechanics) prior to taking the entry level certification. There's a reason why there are very few volunteer registered nurses (and by volunteer, I mean, work as a nurse on the side of a "real" job outside of health care).

 

[Melclin]

Easiest way to end the volly mess? Require college level courses in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, and physicis (at least mechanics) prior to taking the entry level certification. There's a reason why there are very few volunteer registered nurses (and by volunteer, I mean, work as a nurse on the side of a "real" job outside of health care).

Precisely my point.

 

[TransportJockey]

Easiest way to end the volly mess? Require college level courses in anatomy, physiology, chemistry, and physicis (at least mechanics) prior to taking the entry level certification. There's a reason why there are very few volunteer registered nurses (and by volunteer, I mean, work as a nurse on the side of a "real" job outside of health care).

This is what I would like to see! I'd love to require an AAS or BS for entry level into EMS

 

[Ridryder911]

I used to get upset in regards to vollies. Not any more. The bar has been raised and will continue to do so. Vollies do have their place, as I have always stated. That being in very rural America and first response units only.

I chuckle when reading most posts here. Most of the posters will ever get involved in EMS is the chili cook off or a CPR class given. Responding to more than 15 emergency calls a day (even while in a rural area) would cause a mind struck; never mind discussing adult education and methodologies of teaching EMS. Requiring states to update and mandate additional education, as insurance (Medicare, BC/BS) will require states to offer more and more aggressive treatment.

It still saddens me though to read so called medics describing to treat protocols rather than have an educated hypothesis and treat the clinical problems. In other words the patient and not the protocol. Sorry, I don't treat protocols or do I make them fit within a protocol to be able to treat.

The remainder of the medical community is getting tired of EMS lame excuses. Patient care is more and more initiated by what is determined in the field setting. Good accurate thorough examination provided by those that have a formal education (yes, degree) along with several hundreds of clinical hours and preceptorship.

Most involved in this site is very lacking of what is really occurring within the profession of EMS. Lack of interest past responding with l/s or simple training does not mean anything to them. Very few are participants within National, State or Local development of the system itself other than being stretcher fetchers.

I and many others have always provided and encouraged others to participate if they were truly interested within the profession. It appears some have listened, as there are some major changes on the way.

I do doubt that most of those that volunteer will find time to return back to school for the gap or bridge course, that will be required. Doubt that many will want to take college academic level courses such as anatomy/physiology and statistics to be in a Paramedic program. Clinical arrangements have to be made with on site preceptors to verify not just numbers but actual patient contacts and procedures performed (gone are the coffee clinicals). This will not just affect vollies but those that just want to "skate by".

One of the major focus now, is requiring degree entry level. The profession as a whole is asking for it for multiple purposes, many do not understand or lack to have an interest to.
So podt. voice and yell, describe tradition and how things ought to be..... time and progress will resolve it.

R/r 911

 

[Seaglass]

My opinions on this subject are pretty mixed, just like the volly places I'm with.

Something I haven't noticed anyone mention is that some "volunteer" departments are actually compensated fairly nicely. I'm with one that provides free training, a health insurance option, partial tuition reimbursement, retirement, and a whole slew of other good things. You only get them if you put in enough time, and they're very careful about making sure records aren't falsified.

Professionalism at that one is pretty good. We run ALS, and becoming a medic is very strongly encouraged. About half the volunteers have other jobs in medicine, either in career EMS or nursing. Paid people make up a little under half the department, and relations are very good. We train with them, bunk with them, and so on. Experienced volunteers get preferential hiring.

Same training requirements and protocols for everyone who wants a qualification, career or not. The career people tend to be more highly qualified, as they can devote their entire working time towards it--but they tend to focus way more on fire and technical rescue. We only have a handful of volly hazmat specialists, and not too many career medics. But that's the whole EMS vs. fire thing. And we're too rural for separate departments, or more paid people.

I'm also a part of another volunteer service that frustrates me. Training requirements are way lower than local fire or third service, and some of the lapses I've seen supervisors turn a blind eye to really bother me. Professionalism? Depends on which crew you get. Entitlement? You bet. Patient care is acceptable, or we'd have been shut down, but it really could be so much better...

 

[PapaBear434]

One actually could argue that paid people care more for their community's because they are willing to be away from home. That they want to make sure response times are short. That they refuse to leave their community w/o the best in care. etc etc etc etc etc

You could also argue that vollys are selfish. That they do it for personal glory and satisfaction rather than doing whats best for the patient. That they want to be able to put lights etc on personal cars to draw attn to themselves. etc etc etc etc etc

Do I need to go on?

You misunderstand what a lot of volunteer systems are.

We are a squad of over 120 members, we have five ambulances, a squad truck and a support/extrication truck, and a 4x4 fire/rescue support truck. We have a chain of command, board of directors, budgetary meetings and concerns and a regular schedule filled out by us that allows us to have two ambulances on the street at all times, contributing to our umbrella system's (Virginia Beach Rescue) 12-16 ambulances that are on the street at any given time, day or night.

Over half of us are already medics, and almost all the rest are in the pipeline TO medic thanks to Virginia Beach's policy to pay for our schooling in exchange for our services.

Our call volume is about 8-12 patients per ambulance per twelve hour shift. We keep ourselves busy.

Our system employs 40-50 paid medics who ride in "zone cars," covering various areas of the city, to ensure that if by some chance a truck only has two basics that there will always be ALS on any call that requires it, or accessible backup to any major call that needs it.

I will agree that a lot of rural vollie systems have their issues with wannabes just slapping wig-wags on their trucks and considering themselves rescue workers, but don't classify all vollies as worthless. We all aren't cut from the same cloth.

 

[FireResuce48]

Va Beach has a good volunteer system. I lived down there for a year.

Most of the people I talked to in the system seemed to know what they were doing and liked doing it.

 

[medic417]

You misunderstand what a lot of volunteer systems are.


We are a squad of over 120 members, we have five ambulances, a squad truck and a support/extrication truck, and a 4x4 fire/rescue support truck. We have a chain of command, board of directors, budgetary meetings and concerns and a regular schedule filled out by us that allows us to have two ambulances on the street at all times, contributing to our umbrella system's (Virginia Beach Rescue) 12-16 ambulances that are on the street at any given time, day or night.

Over half of us are already medics, and almost all the rest are in the pipeline TO medic thanks to Virginia Beach's policy to pay for our schooling in exchange for our services.

Our call volume is about 8-12 patients per ambulance per twelve hour shift. We keep ourselves busy.

Our system employs 40-50 paid medics who ride in "zone cars," covering various areas of the city, to ensure that if by some chance a truck only has two basics that there will always be ALS on any call that requires it, or accessible backup to any major call that needs it.

I will agree that a lot of rural vollie systems have their issues with wannabes just slapping wig-wags on their trucks and considering themselves rescue workers, but don't classify all vollies as worthless. We all aren't cut from the same cloth.

You misunderstand the point of my comment you qouted. It was in response to the statement that vollys were more dedicated.

 

[rescue99]

I will agree that a lot of rural vollie systems have their issues with wannabes just slapping wig-wags on their trucks and considering themselves rescue workers, but don't classify all vollies as worthless. We all aren't cut from the same cloth.

Is this a part paid service? I love volly services personally but, sometimes we confuse paid and volly. If there is compensation beyond a tiny stipens which might cover fuel costs, it's a part paid department. My husband for example, worked volly for years. He was given a quarterly stipens of very little (maybe 200 bucks) for his service along with all of the time he donated to all other responsibilities involved. He did everything from train rookies, to being an officer, to respond to servicing their trucks.

 

[catskills]

Wow this forum has some real stuck up paid EMS employees. I made a list of those who think because they get paid they walk on water and because volunteers don't get paid they provide inferior patient care. Let me very clear about what I am about to say.

If you think just because your paid you are better than a volunteer, then I do NOT want you providing me or anyone in my family medical assistance. You got that. I am very serious abut that statement. Read it again and then go take a hard look in the mirror. It may be time for you to get off your high horse and find another profession.

 

[subliminal1284]

The only place that I have heard anything negative about volunteers is on this forum.

Call my organization. They absolutely love us. Honestly, the only way you can tell a difference between a volunteer and an employee is if you ask the person.

Everyone at BSBEMS has to do extensive ride outs w/ an FTO and gets evaluated by everyone that they ride out with. We are all held to the same standards, protocols and procedures.

BSBEMS only hires from their volunteer pool. So in the case that Sasha brings up about a lack of motivation to provide good care, is not an issue where I volunteer because everyone there is trying to show how good they are, so they can get a job.

Personally I volunteer for the experience and because i just freaking love EMS. I sure do wish that Paramedics made more money, because then i'd do that full time and work as an RN pt. I really really do love being out in the field WAY more than being in a hospital.

You wanna know what the real problem is?


E G O


stop taking yourself so seriously (not at anyone in specific)

if you are mad because i'm holding you back because I volunteer, then you just need to get better. Then you'll have a job, patients will benefit and my volunteering won't bother you.

Quoted for truth!

 

[Level1pedstech]

Finally someone stands up and makes a clear no BS statement against this continued bashing and outright disrespect aimed at this country's volunteers. Who I will restate out number the paid folks,don't like that statement then prove me wrong or stand down. I have been holding back at making any statements because I really want to be a positive influence and offer my experience to those that are in need of guidance or help and getting into a pissing match with you paid folks seems a bit infantile. My volunteer crew will run circles around your paid crew and that's a fact. Thank you catskills and if this thread goes the way I think it might Ive got your back my brother (or sister).

If any of you non volunteer types are ever in my area and need my assistance I will be there let not your heart be troubled. I am an equal opportunity provider and help all who are in need whether you can pay your bill or not. Should you require paid assistance it will be on scene in around 30 minutes so maybe you could begin your own treatment(because your so superior to me) and hope for the best. Are you really going to have all this bias at that point in time and refuse treatment from what you all consider as your less than equal counterpart.

 

[JB42]

Why is it just us volunteers who are hurting EMS... I think the system itself is hurting EMS paid and volunteer, basic and paramedic, and everything in between. We should develop a system similar to SAMU in France. Doctors and Nurses with "Techs" to assist. A true mobile ER. h34r:

 

[Sasha]

Finally someone stands up and makes a clear no BS statement against this continued bashing and outright disrespect aimed at this country's volunteers. Who I will restate out number the paid folks,don't like that statement then prove me wrong or stand down. I have been holding back at making any statements because I really want to be a positive influence and offer my experience to those that are in need of guidance or help and getting into a pissing match with you paid folks seems a bit infantile. My volunteer crew will run circles around your paid crew and that's a fact.

That's actually an opinion.

If any of you non volunteer types are ever in my area and need my assistance I will be there let not your heart be troubled. I am an equal opportunity provider and help all who are in need whether you can pay your bill or not. Should you require paid assistance it will be on scene in around 30 minutes so maybe you could begin your own treatment(because your so superior to me) and hope for the best. Are you really going to have all this bias at that point in time and refuse treatment from what you all consider as your less than equal counterpart.

As will paid providers. We don't discriminate who gets services and who will not just because we draw a paycheck from EMS. Also, unless I missed it somewhere, the only one I've seen list that they will refuse service based on people being paid or volunteer is catskills.

I wandered over to the license plate thread and saw one specifically for volunteer ambulances. I'm wondering why, if volunteer ambulance personnel want to be seen as equal many insist on setting themselves apart.

 

[akflightmedic]

Why is it just us volunteers who are hurting EMS... I think the system itself is hurting EMS paid and volunteer, basic and paramedic, and everything in between. We should develop a system similar to SAMU in France. Doctors and Nurses with "Techs" to assist. A true mobile ER. h34r:

Ask William and Harry how that worked out for their mom...Diana

 

[Level1pedstech]

I have seen the anti volunteer brigade suggest that if you force agencies to go paid that people will have no choice but to go along or risk losing service. Sounds to me like no pay no play or unless were paid we dont show up.

 

[JB42]

Ask William and Harry how that worked out for their mom...Diana

I expected that comment.

I wish I could come up with some publicized situation where the level of care SAMU provides saved a life that would have otherwise been lost with a system such as that in the US. I just can't seem to find anyone as obscenely famous being in a situation that merited news coverage of not only the incident but the care provided. Obviously mistakes were made in that situation, but I think it is safe to say mistakes have been made that have caused patient death in the US system as well.

My point was that since everyone here is complaining about lower standards and less education and less pay because of volunteers why not take that to the next level. If there is a system that is successfully putting a Dr. on every truck why aren't we. Only the absolute highest level of care right? All communities should be able to afford it, it's a BS excuse to say otherwise.

 

[medic417]

. Who I will restate out number the paid folks,.

Can you provide proof of that statement please.

And for everyone else please stop the thread hijack. The mods have made it clear we are not allowed to do that thus I had to make my own topic rather than reply where I wanted to.