Rant about how much volunteers are hurting our profession

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medic417

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Well here it is folks. Please place your educated responses as to why vollys are hurting the progress of ems. This has the blessing of the mods per the qoute above. I'll post mine as I have time.

Today, 08:10 PM #13
MMiz
Community Leader
I put the M in EMTLife

Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Down South
Posts: 1,000,003,144
Training: EMT-Basic Quote:
Originally Posted by medic417
The majority of the quality constructive educational posts of late have been from those that are bringing into question volunteers, fire fighters, education. By the original post of this topic those posters now will be silenced. I fear this site will no longer be educational but become a good ol' boy pat everybody on the back no matter how wrong they are site.

Those type of debates are more than welcome at EMTLife, but you may not hijack a members thread because of it. I'm tired of a volunteer posting a question and then the whole anti-volunteer gang jumps on the post because of it. If you want to rant about how much volunteers are hurting our profession then you're welcome to start a thread on the topic, but don't hijack another member's thread.
__________________
Matt
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Pudge40

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I feel the mods are crontradicting themselves. They say they want everyone to be respectful of each other but yet then say that you can make a post that belittles volunteers. They need to get their act and story straight.
 

ffemt8978

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I feel the mods are crontradicting themselves. They say they want everyone to be respectful of each other but yet then say that you can make a post that belittles volunteers. They need to get their act and story straight.

No, we allow civil discussion and disagreement...as long as they remain civil. Just because somebody doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean everything they post belittles you.

Feel free to prove the OP wrong using fact, logic, reason and debate...as long as you can remain civil about it.
 
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usafmedic45

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Just because somebody doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean everything they post belittles you.

What he said. If your stance is worth taking, you should be able to gut the other person's argument like a trout. Otherwise, why do you bother holding an opinion you can not defend? BTW, this goes for both sides of this or any argument.
 

Shishkabob

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Police have volunteers as well, and they aren't viewed as any less professional.




Maybe we're doing something else wrong...






/end devils advocate
 

Sasha

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Back on topic. I feel volunteers harm the profession because there is little regulation and uniformity. There is no compensation. Compensation is many people's motivation to do a good job and maintain their current status. Without that incentive people are likely to slack off, there is no crippling loss if they lose their position.
 

JPINFV

Gadfly
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Are the volunteers (I'm assuming you mean civilian patrols and auxiliary) uniformed and armed in most cases (note: retired police volunteering in small town is a different scenario than most volly EMS agencies)? Are the standards set for for police officers set, in part, to be able to attract volunteers? Do the locals hold the services to a lesser standard because they are volunteers?
 

Shishkabob

Forum Chief
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Reserve Officers.

Depending on the city, they can be just crossing guards, or they can be fully uniformed sworn Peace Officers with all the power of paid officers. All still (non monetarily paid) volunteers.
 

8jimi8

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The only place that I have heard anything negative about volunteers is on this forum.

Call my organization. They absolutely love us. Honestly, the only way you can tell a difference between a volunteer and an employee is if you ask the person.

Everyone at BSBEMS has to do extensive ride outs w/ an FTO and gets evaluated by everyone that they ride out with. We are all held to the same standards, protocols and procedures.

BSBEMS only hires from their volunteer pool. So in the case that Sasha brings up about a lack of motivation to provide good care, is not an issue where I volunteer because everyone there is trying to show how good they are, so they can get a job.

Personally I volunteer for the experience and because i just freaking love EMS. I sure do wish that Paramedics made more money, because then i'd do that full time and work as an RN pt. I really really do love being out in the field WAY more than being in a hospital.

You wanna know what the real problem is?


E G O


stop taking yourself so seriously (not at anyone in specific)

if you are mad because i'm holding you back because I volunteer, then you just need to get better. Then you'll have a job, patients will benefit and my volunteering won't bother you.
 

Luno

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8jimi8

I'm going to differ with you, you state that the only real "problem" is EGO, as you put it, yet fail to provide facts backing your assumption. But rather than dismissing it as baseless opinion, I'm going to argue that it isn't ego at all, because there as you put it, there are no differences between professional EMS providers that are either career or volunteer. That negates your point of ego. However there is a far more basic reason to believe that volunteer EMS hurts EMS as a career field. For every volunteer that responds on a call, there could be a career responder, and that in and of itself can be viewed as detrimental to EMS. The townships, cities, other agencies are saving money by using volunteers instead of paying EMS providers their worth, and circumventing career EMS. The issue isn't professionalism, or ego, the issue is that for everyone providing a service that isn't compensated to the level of a career EMS provider, it diminishes that potential for a career EMS providers to make a living in that community. Let's just another analogy, if someone started offering free taxi cab service, wouldn't the charging taxi cabs start to feel threatened? I don't think the answer is all career, or that volunteers are absolutely right, I feel that the answer is somewhere in the middle, and local government needs to be held accountable.
 

8jimi8

CFRN
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Well said.

I appreciate your points.


Is it really the case that some places don't hire EMS because of volunteers, or is it that there is no money to pay, thus volunteers are allowed to have some real responsibility?

I mean r e a l l y... volunteers are causing people to have less money and jobs?

Where I volunteer, they NEVER have enough money to fully staff every shift with a paid employee. BSBEMS is responsible for 3 cities. I know they would hire more people if they had the funding and again, volunteers are doing nothing more than filling in the roster gaps when a paid employee can't make shift. (and we do get compensated... $20 for a 24 shift + $10 for every transport, but we are not paid employees)

I guess i'd like to see some hard data on your points as well.

As for me, my proof is in my post. I have ONLY encountered the "volunteer phenomenon" on this site. I don't really need to give you hard data because in my experience there is nothing tangible.
 

usafmedic45

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I feel volunteers harm the profession because there is little regulation and uniformity.

The same problems exist in paid services. I used to oversee quality for several operations- both paid and volunteer- and there was no dire difference between the volunteers and the paid personnel in terms of quality or oversight. It's not a matter of volly vs. paid that leads to lack of oversight, regulation or uniformity; it's a matter of poor medical control oversight which is by no means unique to volunteer organizations.

There is no compensation.

You understand the concepts of a strawman argument and circular reasoning right?

Compensation is many people's motivation to do a good job and maintain their current status.

Those "many people" are also not the kind who tended to give up their free time to act as volunteers.

Without that incentive people are likely to slack off, there is no crippling loss if they lose their position.

As the saying in legal circles goes, "relies on facts not in evidence". A lot of us who are volunteers could care less about getting paid. Hell, most of the volunteers I know made more money doing their day jobs than you will ever make as a paramedic even if we got rid of volunteers completely. If they are living comfortably and do not need the money and find gratification by helping their neighbors, then who says money is the sole motivator? And you call me burnt out and jaded....girl, please.... :glare: :lol:
 
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JesseM515

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Volunteers might hurt the profession but what about the patients? I have a full time job and I am looking forward to volunteering while finishing up my military enlistment.Im interested in EMS for helping people and I like the idea of being able to do that to the best of your ability without worrying about a paycheck.
 

Ridryder911

EMS Guru
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It is not that I am against volunteerism, just that it should be performed as an initial act and not regarded as professional care. Sorry, emergency medicine is hard enough to maintain proficiency and be educated to provide the very best. Place the role where it should be as in first response.

The main problem is that those associated volunteers is the ones with ego problems. Many communities suffer today not because of lack of funding but do to tradition. Again any community that could afford a professional EMS unit should even more so than some other city services.

Again, I have never been against the volunteer themselves as I have taught & worked with many for decades but the problem arises when such organizations demand and then change the outcomes of programs and services associated with EMS. Most medics are not involved with the "system" of EMS, to really know what is involved at a State and National level. What happens politically in sub-committees and action groups that can and has changed the scope of all levels in EMS. This is where I draw the line volunteer or paid. Patient care is patient care, paid or not. The disease or injury process does not care whether you could afford to obtain a degree or if you make 20 calls a day, you better be the best for the patient and no excuses.

Unfortunately, I have seen what many large number of volunteer groups had done to change and restrict the educational level. As well, I have seen communities not provide ALS care all because tradition; now whose ego is really being displayed.

As more and more progress will be demanded, time will take care of those that cannot provide care. Regionalization and consolidating is the way of the future as the only viable means to continue the service.

R/r 911
 
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PapaBear434

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Not to question the all knowing moderators and their infinite wisdom, but is there really a point to this? I mean, really, both sides have more than said their peace on this, no one is going to be convinced otherwise, and it always ends up with someone getting their feelings hurt because someone gets a little too overzealous defending their "point" and the thread gets shut down.

Why do we want to keep going around on this crazy train? Why can't we just respect all of us, EMT, Medic, Nurse, Doctor, students, volunteer and paid alike, as medical professionals? All this topic serves to do is stroke one's own ego by attempting to crush another's. We're all guilty of it, myself included from time to time. And anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Why not stop running head long into this brick wall and just agree to disagree, and attempt to just try to make each other and ourselves better providers rather than trying to draw lines in the sand and stand against one another?
 

ffemt8978

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Not to question the all knowing moderators and their infinite wisdom, but is there really a point to this? I mean, really, both sides have more than said their peace on this, no one is going to be convinced otherwise, and it always ends up with someone getting their feelings hurt because someone gets a little too overzealous defending their "point" and the thread gets shut down.

Why do we want to keep going around on this crazy train? Why can't we just respect all of us, EMT, Medic, Nurse, Doctor, students, volunteer and paid alike, as medical professionals? All this topic serves to do is stroke one's own ego by attempting to crush another's. We're all guilty of it, myself included from time to time. And anyone who says otherwise is a liar.

Why not stop running head long into this brick wall and just agree to disagree, and attempt to just try to make each other and ourselves better providers rather than trying to draw lines in the sand and stand against one another?

Simple
We don't intend to censor messages based on the opinions expressed within posts, but we will enforce the policies outlined both here, on the Guidelines page and on the Forum. We reserve the right to remove, modify or move posts at our discretion and without explanation.

We will let the discussion continue until such time as it violates our guidelines and rules.
 

PapaBear434

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Simple


We will let the discussion continue until such time as it violates our guidelines and rules.

Of that I have no doubt. But I'm willing to bet that you could search for one of a million former threads on this topic, cut-and-paste the results into THIS thread, and you would be hard pressed to tell the difference from what is going to result in the end. Sure, one or two of the usual players may be replaced with fresh new faces that have not seen the hell about to be unleashed and don't know any better. But for the most part, it's going to be the same thing, same argument spewed by the same people until the same insults are eventually thrown.

It just seems so idiotic to draw borders between us all at a time in our relatively young field of practice when we should be a united front. Most people still don't know what we are or what we do, and most people in the medical field look at us as adrenaline junkies whether we are paid or not.

Maybe we should stop the infighting and just concentrate on becoming better at our jobs and becoming more respected as a field of medicine.

And now, that last part was NOT a shot at Vollies.
 

MrBrown

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Volunteers hurt EMS because they will always be the lowest common deominator that standards are watered down to please.
 
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