Physician Assistant ?

SandpitMedic

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I chose nursing...
I have graduate education...
I saw a good quote that applies to you.
"Your degree is just a piece of paper. Your education is seen in your behavior."
I'm sure glad I don't have to work with you.
 

FiremanMike

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I'll give you more credit than the fireman for at least being in the ER alongside PAs etc., but I hope people reading can sort the wheat from the chaff in this thread. Holy smokes.
Excuse me?

And here I thought we left things on good terms.

If you want to low key attack me later in the thread, I’d appreciate it if you address your responses to me instead of attacking my credibility to others. You’re like that guy in a group discussion who starts running their mouth to others about the guy who’s standing right in front of you.

I made a few assertions - First, that I felt pre-pa coursework was illogical to me and that it doesn’t make sense to take a year of chem, bio, physics, o-chem, and a&p and not just take the MCAT and go for medical school. Second, that despite all that extra prerequisite coursework, PAs and NPs compete for the same jobs at the same salary point. Third, that. NPs are further along in their mission for independence which seems to make them more future proof.

Now then, I’ve already stipulated that my first point was my own opinion so you can ignore that one but since you backhandedly tried to disparage my thoughts, I’ll ask you to refute point 2 and 3, or you can apologize for attacking my integrity without having the balls to come directly at me.
 

SandpitMedic

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Excuse me?

And here I thought we left things on good terms.

If you want to low key attack me later in the thread, I’d appreciate it if you address your responses to me instead of attacking my credibility to others. You’re like that guy in a group discussion who starts running their mouth to others about the guy who’s standing right in front of you.

I made a few assertions - First, that I felt pre-pa coursework was illogical to me and that it doesn’t make sense to take a year of chem, bio, physics, o-chem, and a&p and not just take the MCAT and go for medical school. Second, that despite all that extra prerequisite coursework, PAs and NPs compete for the same jobs at the same salary point. Third, that. NPs are further along in their mission for independence which seems to make them more future proof.

Now then, I’ve already stipulated that my first point was my own opinion so you can ignore that one but since you backhandedly tried to disparage my thoughts, I’ll ask you to refute point 2 and 3, or you can apologize for attacking my integrity without having the balls to come directly at me.
I was very direct with you, and Peak. You were making statements that were inaccurate. We don't have to agree on everything.
Damn, I'm getting my firemen mixed up. That was for DrParasite. (edited)

To your point #2: I'm not sure what you're target is here. Yes, both NP and PA have similar functions and salary. Yes, they both have an arduous path of prerequisites to navigate. Going from nurse to NP seems like a logical path. However, going from paramedic to PA seems like a more natural path to me than medic->ADN->BSN->MSN NP. We had a nurse in my PA class. Whichever choice one makes for themselves is the right choice for themselves. There are a lot of variables for an individual. I am not saying one is definitively better than the other. Just responding to the OP about a medic going PA. I already stated I support your decision to do what is best for you.

To your point #3: Yes, the nurses have a great lobby that has advanced their agenda faster than the PAs. The nursing profession has been around much longer than the PA profession, so I am not surprised by this. Neither profession was initially intended to become an independent medical practice free of physician oversight. However, they are continuously evolving due to many factors including physician shortages. The goal is not to be the first one to independent practice- it is to be part of a healthcare team that is efficient and serves the needs of patients. The PAs have a great outlook and they will get to that goal also, with legislative efforts and support.

Can we be friends again? 👍Low key..
 
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DrParasite

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@FiremanMike , I'm pretty sure that comment was directed towards me. the PA student apparently thinks that because he's a student in a PA program, that everyone else who considered PA school and worked in hospitals for years (including 2 level 1 trauma centers) knows absolutely nothing. I mean, his wife is an APP, and he has many friends who are APPs ,but he's also quick to point out "I heard it from a bud" doesn't count," but apparently when it's his buds, it's ok. After all, he's not really in any position to make any assertions about PAs, because he's not one (yet). But he's talking like his an authority on them, without actually being one.

I've dealt with enough students to know that until they pass their boards, they are just students. After you get that PA-C credential, than I will actually care what he thinks. After all, as I told a student nurse many years ago who tried to lecture me on something, I don't answer to you, you aren't certified as anything above me, so why should I care what you think of me? Come talk to me after you have finished your schooling.

Oh, and for the record, I was talking to one of my fellow FFs (he's a volunteer, former career FF/PM who went to nursing school), who is almost done with his CRNA program that is partnered with one of the level 1 trauma centers in the area, and he agreed that there were a lot of PA students who were in the PA program because they didn't get into medical school. and that statement has as much validity as what your wife said or your friends.

and I'll repeat what I said last time: you know the old saying, if you have seen one PA program, you have seen one PA program....
 

DrParasite

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PAs have a great future outlook, and the compensation scale is very, very lucrative in some cases making as much as $250k annually just in salary.
for being an all knowing PA student, this fact that you know looked, well, wrong.... So lets looks at some websites, and see what they say:
Avg PA salary 104k
avg PA salary 95k
avg PA salary 105k

Well, if you are wrong about that one detail (nowhere mentioned a PA making more than 200k, even on the high end), and you are married to an APP, and have plenty of APP/MD friends so you have all this information as a self proclaimed expert, I wonder what else you are wrong about and refuse to admit?

Oh, and I never said PA school was full of med school dropouts. I said rejects, meaning they ended up in PA school because they had good grades in college, and didn't get into the med school that they wanted to get into, but were accepted into the Physician Assistant program. Again, details matter, and please don't put words in my mouth or accuse me of saying something that I never said.

Now that you have put your foot in your mouth, maybe you can admit you don't know everything, and maybe, just maybe, even this dumb fireman knows a little bit about what he is talking about?
 

SandpitMedic

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Bingo, bango, bongo.. this is getting out of hand.

for being an all knowing PA student, this fact that you know looked, well, wrong....Well, if you are wrong about that one detail (nowhere mentioned a PA making more than 200k, even on the high end),
Did I say average? The average is low-mid low 6 figures starting. Pay depends on specialty, location, and demand. There are also bonuses, CMEs, benfites, etc. I said you could make as much as $250k just in salary, and you can (as can a NP) with experience and the right gig. Can you make that in primary care? No way.

maybe you can admit you don't know everything, and maybe, just maybe, even this dumb fireman knows a little bit about what he is talking about?
I never said you were dumb. I said you don't know what you're talking about. And I still feel that way.
In case you missed my post from earlier in the thread-
Do I need to smoke check myself?... I'm not the king of the PAs and I don't know everything...

I've dealt with enough students to know that until they pass their boards, they are just students. After you get that PA-C credential, than I will actually care what he thinks. After all, as I told a student nurse many years ago who tried to lecture me on something, I don't answer to you, you aren't certified as anything above me, so why should I care what you think of me? Come talk to me after you have finished your schooling.
Are you talking to me or about me? This thread is for people to read and learn about going from medic to PA. I don't really care about your insensitivities. In my opinion, you've really shown your *** with that statement. Too good to learn something from anyone "inferior" to you. Well played. I'll bet you're a real treat at the firehouse.
 

SandpitMedic

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I'm not talking to the distractors anymore. You got a beef? I assure you I 100% don't care, but you can PM me if you really have an itch.

This post is for EMS folks looking into PA school
- Do it. It's a great and rewarding career. You'll improve your knowledge, skills, and abilities as well as advance your station in life and in medicine. If you have the aptitude and attitude to succeed, go for it. If you want to go NP, MD, DO, RT, RN... go for it. If you have any fire to advance your education and move up the chain of medicine, stoke it. Start taking classes. Start researching programs. Start planning. Make moves and take action.

There is also nothing wrong with seeking out a good gig in EMS; those are out there too despite the problems in EMS. Learn to be the best paramedic you can be, go HEMS, go FP-C, go CCP, (go fire??? ;) )... never stop learning, and never let your ego convince you there is nothing left to learn.
 

Tigger

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Your shortsightedness is getting old. If you are not a PA, NP/CRNA, physician, or student/applicant to any of the aforementioned... stop acting like you know everything about advance practice providers. You have no credibility - you don't know what you're talking about.

Here is the OP... None of this back and forth has anything to do with it.
You aren't doing yourself many favors with this logic. Healthcare trends are a topic accessible to all with the ability to do a bit of research. Stomping your feet about credibility doesn't do your own credibility much good. If you have evidence for your points, you have evidence (and you do). Making it about experience is just not becoming.
 

SandpitMedic

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You aren't doing yourself many favors with this logic. Healthcare trends are a topic accessible to all with the ability to do a bit of research. Stomping your feet about credibility doesn't do your own credibility much good. If you have evidence for your points, you have evidence (and you do). Making it about experience is just not becoming.
There's the smoke check I was looking for. Just would prefer for those not in my profession to withhold statements of absolution about it. It's like when people (even medical people) insist that paramedics are only ambulance drivers- here, we all know that is not true, based on our expertise in EMS. I encourage dialogue based on research and first hand experience; I discourage feels and an unwillingness to be teachable. Trying to stay objective is difficult sometimes.
Thanks for the advice.
 

Peak

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There's the smoke check I was looking for. Just would prefer for those not in my profession to withhold statements of absolution about it. It's like when people (even medical people) insist that paramedics are only ambulance drivers- here, we all know that is not true, based on our expertise in EMS. I encourage dialogue based on research and first hand experience; I discourage feels and an unwillingness to be teachable. Trying to stay objective is difficult sometimes.
Thanks for the advice.
What I'm about to say is 100% in an effort to help you out and not to be a jerk:

Most people won't understand what the PA role really is. Most people don't really understand the role of paramedics, nurses, advanded practice nurses, perfusionists, respiratory therapists, pharmacists, docs, OT, PT, SLP, radiology technologists, and so on. Certainly you can try to educate people on it, but don't get too emotionally invested because you aren't going to change the general public.

You are going to have to learn to trust your team. At some point you will be wrong. At some point the nurses, attendings, pharmacists, and so on are going to be wrong. If you are lucky and have a good team someone will catch the error before it reaches the patient. When I went from medic to nursing trusting other staff was a huge issue for me, I wanted to do or verify everything myself. There just isn't a way for this to be possible in the American healthcare system.
 

FiremanMike

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I was very direct with you, and Peak. You were making statements that were inaccurate. We don't have to agree on everything.
Damn, I'm getting my firemen mixed up. That was for DrParasite. (edited)

To your point #2: I'm not sure what you're target is here. Yes, both NP and PA have similar functions and salary. Yes, they both have an arduous path of prerequisites to navigate. Going from nurse to NP seems like a logical path. However, going from paramedic to PA seems like a more natural path to me than medic->ADN->BSN->MSN NP. We had a nurse in my PA class. Whichever choice one makes for themselves is the right choice for themselves. There are a lot of variables for an individual. I am not saying one is definitively better than the other. Just responding to the OP about a medic going PA. I already stated I support your decision to do what is best for you.

To your point #3: Yes, the nurses have a great lobby that has advanced their agenda faster than the PAs. The nursing profession has been around much longer than the PA profession, so I am not surprised by this. Neither profession was initially intended to become an independent medical practice free of physician oversight. However, they are continuously evolving due to many factors including physician shortages. The goal is not to be the first one to independent practice- it is to be part of a healthcare team that is efficient and serves the needs of patients. The PAs have a great outlook and they will get to that goal also, with legislative efforts and support.

Can we be friends again? 👍Low key..
If your “more credibility than the fireman“ comment wasn't directed at me, then we have no beef. At no point have I spent effort on this thread being a detractor, I'm actually quite capable and enjoy learning from others experiences and opinions. My only point for even posting in this thread is that I have researched pretty extensively on the various pathways to mid-level/physician pathways.. I was only trying to share my opinions from this research for others to consider as well..


That said, you allude to me making inaccurate statements in your quoted reply, however I summarized my points from this thread and you pretty much agreed with them, so I'm not sure what inaccuracies exist?
 

Carlos Danger

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So your do work in a rural area?

I know a CRNA who lives here and flies his Cessna to a different state to practice and then flies back here to his family. Just because you commute doesn't change the nature of the healthcare facility.
I do live and work in a rural area, but you are completely missing the point.

Look, one last time, here are the facts:

  • Shortages in medicine are real, on a national basis.

  • The shortages are most acute in primary care, but exist within specialty areas, as well.

  • The shortages are most acute in rural areas and inner cities, but there are jobs pretty much everywhere

  • The shortages are projected to worsen, ensuring plenty of jobs and upward pressure on compensation for years to come

  • Anecdotes based on local anomalies mean absolutely nothing in terms of overall, national trends

  • If you choose to dispute all or any of this, fine. You do you. But know that you are disagreeing with not only those who work in the field and are privy to a perspective on trends that you are not, but also with every study published on the subject in the last two decades. If you insist that you know more than both of those sources, I can't help you.

That said, I have no interest in expending any more effort trying to change the mind of obstinate individuals who insist on arguing that things in plain sight don't exist. It's just about time for me to head to work at my job that no one wants.

On the other hand, if anyone wants to discuss opportunities in advanced practice, especially advanced practice nursing, and especially Nurse Anesthesiology, I'm here.
 

mgr22

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On the other hand, if anyone wants to discuss opportunities in advanced practice, especially advanced practice nursing, and especially Nurse Anesthesiology, I'm here.
Is the proper term for what you do Nurse Anesthetist? Do you have to be an NP if you want to practice that specialty? How closely are you supervised by anesthesiologists? Would you say you're treated by your colleagues more as a doctor or more as a nurse?
 

DrParasite

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Your shortsightedness is getting old. If you are not a PA, NP/CRNA, physician, or student/applicant to any of the aforementioned... stop acting like you know everything about advance practice providers. You have no credibility - you don't know what you're talking about.
wait a second... you aren't a PA, NP/CRNA, physician.... and as a student applicant, you still aren't a PA, NP/CRNA, nor physician, and simply being a student or applicant doesn't make you any more of an expert than any other student or applicant.

We see this a lot with paramedic students; once they get into a paramedic program, they immediately become know it alls and think they are better than their emt coworkers.... congrats on getting into PA school, but until you actually become a PA-C, you are on the same level as the rest of us, and stomping your feet saying

is not the right way to add to your credibility. And it's likely to cause you problems when you start working in the hospitals or during your clinicals.

Instead of a smoke check, I'll give you a BS check.... you're providing incorrect information. I showed you how your salary was GROSSLY inflated, and provided three websites that backed up my claim, and demonstrated how your information was wrong. Instead of actually providing any source to your claim that a PA could make 250k, you decided to stomp your feet, and say "I'm a PA student, and I know everything, and if you aren't a PA student, how dare you question me!!!!" Let me give you some advice: when you are wrong, it's ok to admit you are wrong. Especially when someone provides you actual facts, with a source, that show that you are wrong (like me providing https://money.usnews.com/careers/best-jobs/physician-assistant/salary, which clearly says that PAs don't make anywhere near $250k). Oh, and if you want to show how someone is wrong, it's a lot better to actually provide a source to back up your claims, instead of simply dismissing what they say as wrong with no actual facts to support your point. another helpful tidbit to help you in the future.

PA is a great program, NP is a great program, and medical school is a great program. Each have their advantages and disadvantages, depending on how long you want to be in school, where you want to be in the medical hierarchy, how much debt you want to graduate with, and what area of healthcare do you want to be in. If I had a sugar momma, who would support me for 3 years, I would have gone to PA school in a heartbeat. If I was a nurse, I would go to NP school, because you can attend while working. If I could take 6 years off from life (4 years of medical school, 1 of internship, and the start of residency), and then end up 250k in debt, I might consider medical school.

But if you want to advance you career beyond paramedic, take the educational prerequisite classes, and do it.

I do think there is a shortage of competent MDs in various parts of the US, and PAs and NPs are being used to fill that gap. But one thing you need to remember is a PA is not the same as an MD, despite then often filling similar roles.

Random fact: in NC, PAs and NPs needs to operate under a doctor's license. in 15 states in the US, CRNA's don't, and they do the same thing as an anesthesiologist. Oh, and CRNA's have an average salary of 248k, at least according to https://txwes.edu/academics/health-...rna-vs-anesthesiologist-whats-the-difference/
 
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akflightmedic

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Rural? Run a MEDCAP in the jungles of Belize and let’s talk rural. 😁
I ran MEDCAPs in remote jungles of the Philippines. :) T'was fun, challenging, very educational and heartbreaking.
 

SandpitMedic

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Is there a draft in here? Must be a window open.
I’m not debating the finer points anymore. Plenty of data has been presented, and I did not mince any words. People can read and interpret how they would like.
If anyone has questions about going EMS to PA I’m happy to help.
 

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