OP
OP
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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and …..scene.
"Getting close to" * Teacher
- Thread starter mycrofft
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Aidey
Community Leader Emeritus
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1. I said I was busy, I'm still busy.
2. This reply was not funny.
3. If you want something to do until I'm not busy, google "modesty doctrine rape culture" (sans quotes) and that should get you headed in the right direction. While not exactly the topic at hand, there is ample discussion about clothing and men to get you started.
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Fair enough, I waited 24 hours, I assumed you'd lost interest, but if you want more time, I'll wait.
No, your reply was not funny at all. Mine was a little funny, but that wasn't actually it's purpose, it's purpose was to provide a framework for the initiation of actual discourse.
I'm familiar with the argument, and not only do I think that it's only tangentially related to the actual topic at hand, but I think it's inherently fallacious.
Anjel
Forum Angel
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I feel like I shouldn't but I kind of agree with Unki. I wear clothes that make my certain assets look good. In return make me feel good, because other people(men) think I look good. Even if it's only my husband.
The push up bras, plunging neck lines, etc. draw attention to your chest. Which is fine and if it makes you feel sexy and good then wear it. And you should be able to wear whatever you want without being constantly stared at. Or made to feel ashamed or like you need to cover up. But I don't think it's the end of the world if a guy is looking at you. It's just recognition that they also think you look as good in the those clothes as you feel while wearing them.
The push up bras, plunging neck lines, etc. draw attention to your chest. Which is fine and if it makes you feel sexy and good then wear it. And you should be able to wear whatever you want without being constantly stared at. Or made to feel ashamed or like you need to cover up. But I don't think it's the end of the world if a guy is looking at you. It's just recognition that they also think you look as good in the those clothes as you feel while wearing them.
MonkeyArrow
Forum Asst. Chief
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Even beyond the idea of a male "objectifying" you, the fact that women wear plunging necklines is inherent to animal behavior, just as it is a man's to notice. You ever watch one of those Animal Planet shows where it's mating the season and the guy with the cool voice goes like the male peacock is spreading his feathers to display his colors to the females. Why in the world do they do that? So they can attract mates. Its similar as to how females (and males) make themselves look good to attract the opposite gender. It is a naturally inherent process, and to take offense to a guy looking is unfair.
Furthermore, the idea that a woman takes offense at a guy looking at her furthers the idea of a societal double standard and "social warfare". Why should you fault a man prospectively "eyeing" you, just as you probably do to other men. Without finding a mate, you can't reproduce. And going back to high school biology, the simplest of Darwin's concepts includes the ability of an animal to survive and reproduce. Males cannot reproduce without a female. Back to double standards, why is it that females, in certain sectors, are treated differently than men? In jails, for examples, male officers are not allowed to search female inmates where as female officers are allowed to search male inmates. Is it because females "feel bad" when males touch them or is it because society is saying that men are more likely to conduct themselves unprofessionally then females would? Are you saying that males have a greater chance of groping females? Go look at any episode of Criminal Minds, count the number of male suspects to female suspects. Socially, we continue to propagate these standards and it is not reasonable for you to attempt to blame a male's behavior on his sick, perverted, demeaning (or whatever) mind.
Furthermore, the idea that a woman takes offense at a guy looking at her furthers the idea of a societal double standard and "social warfare". Why should you fault a man prospectively "eyeing" you, just as you probably do to other men. Without finding a mate, you can't reproduce. And going back to high school biology, the simplest of Darwin's concepts includes the ability of an animal to survive and reproduce. Males cannot reproduce without a female. Back to double standards, why is it that females, in certain sectors, are treated differently than men? In jails, for examples, male officers are not allowed to search female inmates where as female officers are allowed to search male inmates. Is it because females "feel bad" when males touch them or is it because society is saying that men are more likely to conduct themselves unprofessionally then females would? Are you saying that males have a greater chance of groping females? Go look at any episode of Criminal Minds, count the number of male suspects to female suspects. Socially, we continue to propagate these standards and it is not reasonable for you to attempt to blame a male's behavior on his sick, perverted, demeaning (or whatever) mind.
Rin
Forum Captain
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For me, it really comes down to how a guy looks at me. If a guy notices me, maybe gives me a smile, it's flattering. If a guy is straight staring without any friendliness toward me as a person, I start feeling uncomfortable. If he is leering, giving predatory looks, invading my personal space, brushing against me or otherwise touching me, he's crossed the line.
Bottom line, don't be a creeper and it's all good.
Bottom line, don't be a creeper and it's all good.
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I still for my believe certain styles of clothes were designed for a specific reason. The majority wear them for that reason, some don't but the majority do.
Knowing the reason these clothes in question were designed the way they were can women really blame men for interpreting it that way? Why not blame the clothing designer or the women that used the clothing that exposes them to further themselves in a career, personal or romantic endeavor?
If you don't want to be looked at in a sexual way don't dress in a way that accentuates your body in a sexual way. It's that simple.
Knowing the reason these clothes in question were designed the way they were can women really blame men for interpreting it that way? Why not blame the clothing designer or the women that used the clothing that exposes them to further themselves in a career, personal or romantic endeavor?
If you don't want to be looked at in a sexual way don't dress in a way that accentuates your body in a sexual way. It's that simple.
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OP
OP
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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On all fours in my CPR class. ?
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Reminds me of that joke; if you want to take someone down a notch, just imagine everything they say ending with the words "in my underwear" or "after picking my nose".
h34r:The way I figure it, that's part of the social contract. I'm allowed to look, I'm not allowed to stare, and if I'm caught looking I have to at least pretend to be abashed.
I forget which comedian said it, but there's a quote out there along the lines of "The first thing a man notices about a woman is her eyes, then when he's sure she's not looking, her breasts.".
Rin
Forum Captain
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There is a world of wrong in this.
What does it mean to not accentuate my body in a sexual way? To not wear clothing that fits my shape properly, thus following my curves? Must women hide themselves in ill-fitting clothing in an attempt to repel unwanted advances?
Or is the real problem that men find women's bodies inherently sexual and can't bother to reign in their one-sided attraction?
No matter how much a woman covers, it's never enough. There's always some hint of curves beneath those baggy clothes, some tiny attractive detail peeking through that draws unwanted attention.
I get the same sexual attention when I'm wearing my EMS pants, poorly fitting men's uniform shirt & oversized men's jacket as I do when I'm wearing a nice v-neck and skirt. It's not the way I dress, it's the way men choose to behave.
DesertMedic66
Forum Troll
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I second this statement. I know it is not in favor nor do I really care. If you want people to view you as a professional then dress like one. If you want guys and gals (I work in a huge LGBT community) to look at you like eye candy then dress like that.
The easy solution is mandatory uniforms. They are not "sexy" by any standard and men and women wear the exact same cloths.
Rin
Forum Captain
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I can't stress this enough. Dressing and conducting myself as a professional does not decrease the amount of unwanted sexual attention I receive. Men don't care that my uniform is baggy and unflattering.
You may personally treat women with respect, but don't assume that your good behavior translates to your peers. Accept that someone with a closer perspective might have more experience in the matter.
If your wife or daughter told you some guy was bothering her, would you tell her to just cover herself better and she won't have any more problems? Do you really believe that?
How about instead of excusing some men's poor behavior and blaming others, we make them take responsibility instead?
Aidey
Community Leader Emeritus
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I guess I better dig my burka out of the closet.
ExpatMedic0
MS, NRP
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Whatever a woman or man chooses to wear is up to them, but I still do not see a problem with a "business casual" dress code for professional CME training? As I stated before, I have attended many CME courses with this dress code. I am a tank top and t shirt kind of kind of guy, BUT I own slacks, polo shirts, and collar shirts with ties to adhere with dress codes when necessary.
Anjel
Forum Angel
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For CME yes I agree business casual is appropriate. I think the OP was teaching a general CPR class open to the public. Kind of hard to set professional standards, when most really aren't professionals.
Anjel
Forum Angel
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This I have a problem with. I should be able to dress however I want. And if there is anything happening that makes me uncomfortable, it's not my fault.
Looking is fine. But like Rin said... Staring and creeping is not.
OP
OP
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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Up to them? Not if it distracts from my teaching or robs my other students' attention, or if it is not allowed by whomever contracted me to present the class. I don't care if I'm teaching for Hooters or the Iranian embassy, I'm there to import knowledge in a safe and optimal environment which could just as easily be taught if we all wore the paper jumpsuits painters wear*.
Business casual: not only is it perfect for the class, but in the case of a class at a business or organization, it presents a lasting impression you will want, instead of the maneuvering and etc. otherwise occurring. (I always remind people to empty their pockets before we do the HAINES hands-on for that reason).
The whole issue comes up for me because, too me, it seems that in its zeal to get paying customers, there is no pre-event info from the ARC about proper wear. I have students who ask if they can do it on the table and then smile. Nope. You can attend but I cannot certify you.
*Since I'm on the floor too (I am the "victim" for the first demo of pt rolling and HAINES) I wear khakis and a button up shirt with long tails. My ideal wear when I'm a student is a long sleeve t-shirt and jeans with suspenders. And black sports shoes all the time.
OP
OP
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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Reeling it back to the OP
On one hand, you have the right to wear bacon into a pit bull kennel (or droopy male jeans to a Chippendales' show), but then you have to handle the barking. And males need to stop valuing being a wannabe thug and act like men. Little class on both sides.
===============================================
My OP is twofold, primary and secondary:
SEC: People, and so far after four years exclusively women*, wear the darndest stuff to a CPR Class (unsafe shoes, short or revealing clothes).
PRI: Some female students seem to want to use this to flirt or otherwise affect the instructor. (Coincidentally, they were not the best when they were tested nor when they were doing the practicum).
SIDEBAR: texting in class bugs me, but when I finally noted they were doing well as well as everyone else in the practicums, I dealt with my prejudice. So it isn't all "get off my lawn". But no phones during practicums.
SCENARIO: I teach a class at your company. ANY GENDER: you wear something short, revealing, or have a pocket protector that spills everything on the floor, have on socks with Bart Simpson naked, or whatever. What sort of lasting impression will that leave on co-workers or boss? Every time my boss looks at Mycrofft, she sees the guy who not only had an avalanche of Sharpees and the Simpsons socks on, but had the good sense to select these things that morning.
*The closest to inappropriate wear from a male was one guy who came ten minutes late, ball cap on backwards and sunglasses on indoors. He quietly straightened it all out after the first practicum, conscious choking.
On one hand, you have the right to wear bacon into a pit bull kennel (or droopy male jeans to a Chippendales' show), but then you have to handle the barking. And males need to stop valuing being a wannabe thug and act like men. Little class on both sides.
===============================================
My OP is twofold, primary and secondary:
SEC: People, and so far after four years exclusively women*, wear the darndest stuff to a CPR Class (unsafe shoes, short or revealing clothes).
PRI: Some female students seem to want to use this to flirt or otherwise affect the instructor. (Coincidentally, they were not the best when they were tested nor when they were doing the practicum).
SIDEBAR: texting in class bugs me, but when I finally noted they were doing well as well as everyone else in the practicums, I dealt with my prejudice. So it isn't all "get off my lawn". But no phones during practicums.
SCENARIO: I teach a class at your company. ANY GENDER: you wear something short, revealing, or have a pocket protector that spills everything on the floor, have on socks with Bart Simpson naked, or whatever. What sort of lasting impression will that leave on co-workers or boss? Every time my boss looks at Mycrofft, she sees the guy who not only had an avalanche of Sharpees and the Simpsons socks on, but had the good sense to select these things that morning.
*The closest to inappropriate wear from a male was one guy who came ten minutes late, ball cap on backwards and sunglasses on indoors. He quietly straightened it all out after the first practicum, conscious choking.
OP
OP
mycrofft
Still crazy but elsewhere
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If we tiptoe out quietly and ease the door shut maybe they'll stay asleep…..
