"Getting close to" * Teacher

UnkiEMT

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Because you get dressed, look at your short self in the mirror, and say, "Everything's covered, good to go." Then you go out and you have men a foot taller than you with their higher vantage point, and suddenly
every top is low cut. Women's clothes are made that way and it's very difficult to find clothing that's not low cut and/or see through (tops AND bottoms). I've gone to class in men's jeans & a pocket T and caught men leering down my shirt. It's constant and it's very tiresome...


Speaking as someone who's 6'8, and thus at least a foot taller than most women, I can have some sympathy for that view point, certainly a men's v-neck can reveal more to me than may have been intended.

That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.
 
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mycrofft

mycrofft

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Because you get dressed, look at your short self in the mirror, and say, "Everything's covered, good to go." Then you go out and you have men a foot taller than you with their higher vantage point, and suddenly
every top is low cut. Women's clothes are made that way and it's very difficult to find clothing that's not low cut and/or see through (tops AND bottoms). I've gone to class in men's jeans & a pocket T and caught men leering down my shirt. It's constant and it's very tiresome...

I fully sympathize and apologize for my own and any others' past and future disgressions. (At least when guys get ogled the oglers are usually behind us, hence we don't have issues during conversations etc).

But when the class is on all fours the "tall guy" thing goes out the window.

And since I have no control over the potential students before they are in my class, I can't say "Dress to crawl around".
 
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mycrofft

mycrofft

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Not always

Speaking as someone who's 6'8, and thus at least a foot taller than most women, I can have some sympathy for that view point, certainly a men's v-neck can reveal more to me than may have been intended.

That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.

Speaking as the father of a young woman and having worked with many women as a nurse, some people like to dress a little revealingly and their idea of "a little" is more revealing than others'.

But, just as I learned not to wear button fly jeans to go welding (ouch), they have to learn that it is safer, considerate and more seemly to dress for being on all fours. Its also an image enhancer if you are trying to be seen as professional and serious. There's a time and a place.
 

Anjel

Forum Angel
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I've done CPR classes on tables before. Wait maybe that was the CPR portion of ACLS...I can't remember. I've done CPR on a COR mannequin on a table in an alphabet supe class.

I don't personally see the issue here. If they want to take the risk of exposing themselves and/or intentionally position their clothing in order to try and use their sexual appeal to further themselves that's on them. Doesn't affect me in any way shape or form.

One thing I will never understand is why women wear low cut shirts and yell when they catch a guy glancing. I don't yell when girls give me elevator eyes. I know a chick who has three diamond peircings between her breasts in a line superior to inferior and she freaks out when people look at them. You put something shiny there what do you expect!?


Eh I really don't care. Lol
 

Rin

Forum Captain
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Speaking as someone who's 6'8, and thus at least a foot taller than most women, I can have some sympathy for that view point, certainly a men's v-neck can reveal more to me than may have been intended.

That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.

Ooh, baby, I love it when you talk fashion ;)
 

Rin

Forum Captain
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I fully sympathize and apologize for my own and any others' past and future disgressions. (At least when guys get ogled the oglers are usually behind us, hence we don't have issues during conversations etc).

But when the class is on all fours the "tall guy" thing goes out the window.

Guilty. OTL

As far as the "tall guy" thing goes, I was just speaking about women's clothing in general. Dressing for physical activity is another matter.
 

Aidey

Community Leader Emeritus
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That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.

Um, yeah. We can. It isn't all about you, or other men, or attracting attention in general. Believe it or not, sometimes we do things because we like them, not for anyone elses benefit.
 

Handsome Robb

Youngin'
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Um, yeah. We can. It isn't all about you, or other men, or attracting attention in general. Believe it or not, sometimes we do things because we like them, not for anyone elses benefit.


I'm gonna side with unki on this one. Low cut shirts were designed that way for a reason. To accentuate a women's body. If there's another good reason I'm all ears to it.
 

STXmedic

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Ventilation?
 

Aidey

Community Leader Emeritus
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That still doesn't mean it is all about attracting attention from men.


Again, sometimes we do things for ourselves and not for you.
 

UnkiEMT

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That still doesn't mean it is all about attracting attention from men.


Again, sometimes we do things for ourselves and not for you.

Okay, convince me that a plunging neckline has some redeeming quality other than sexiness.

They're not convenient, they're not comfortable, and they require constant attention to make sure they stay in place, so what do they do?

Now, if you want to argue that you're wearing it because it's sexy, and you feel good, that's fine. Inherent to that argument though is that I, along with the rest of the heterosexual male population will find it attractive.

You don't have to be doing it for my gratification for it to have an effect on me.
 

Aidey

Community Leader Emeritus
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Okay, convince me that a plunging neckline has some redeeming quality other than sexiness.

They're not convenient, they're not comfortable, and they require constant attention to make sure they stay in place, so what do they do?

Now, if you want to argue that you're wearing it because it's sexy, and you feel good, that's fine. Inherent to that argument though is that I, along with the rest of the heterosexual male population will find it attractive.

You don't have to be doing it for my gratification for it to have an effect on me.

I'm eyebrow deep in something that is taking priority right now, so I can't give this the full reply it deserves. But I feel the need to point out just how bloody freaking creepy this post and the other one I quoted are. I can not accurately describe just how uncomfortable and perturbed I am with this attitude.
 

UnkiEMT

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I'm eyebrow deep in something that is taking priority right now, so I can't give this the full reply it deserves. But I feel the need to point out just how bloody freaking creepy this post and the other one I quoted are. I can not accurately describe just how uncomfortable and perturbed I am with this attitude.

When you have the time, I'm genuinely interested to hear your counterpoint.

It's entirely possibly I made too broad a set of assumption about your position based on a few short lines, as I'm pretty sure you did about mine. There are many reasons to find me creepy, discomforting and disturbing, but I'm relatively sure my attitude towards women's fashion isn't one of them.
 
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mycrofft

mycrofft

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I think a lot of generalization is going on here. Not all women do something for one reason. Not all guys feel one way about stuff.

But if EMTLIFE folks are being honest about their feelings and other EMTLIFE folks are being honest about their reactions to those feelings, and discussion is not stifled, I think a little discomfort has to be expected and tolerated. As long as it isn't personally directed. Maybe send someone a message if it's getting to you?

I had three students with conspicuous décolleté today who were NOT posing or staging for the teacher (me). All did fine. It was a good class all around. One more to go.
 

Summit

Critical Crazy
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That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.

Wow.

You don't have to be a feminist to see the glaring ethnocentric (American "traditionalist" male centric) AND egocentric nature of that post.

It's not always about you. If you enjoy it enjoy it if you don't then get over it. Being unable to is much more cultural than genetic.
 

ThadeusJ

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I partake in these conversations to learn something about the industry and those within it. Some issues are technical, some professional and some cultural. I'm always trying to absorb, learn and go on from there without judgement...on a daily basis.

Today I learned the word "décolleté". Its Friday, so I guess I'm now done for the week...
 

RescueRider724

Forum Crew Member
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I am surprised that the ARC said you could not tell them to dress for physical activity, I am an AHA instructor and that is in every letter that goes out to the students: Dress for physical activity while kneeling on the floor for this class; as it is a requirement to perform the skills for your certification card. I do not see anything rude or obnoxious about that simple statement. The table issue is an instant fail in AHA as well.
 
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mycrofft

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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Wow.

You don't have to be a feminist to see the glaring ethnocentric (American "traditionalist" male centric) AND egocentric nature of that post.

It's not always about you. If you enjoy it enjoy it if you don't then get over it. Being unable to is much more cultural than genetic.
-------------
If a tree falls in the woods and no one hears….

If you wear a sharp suit or strappy six inch Jimmy Chu heels and there's no one to see it….
 
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mycrofft

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
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I am surprised that the ARC said you could not tell them to dress for physical activity, I am an AHA instructor and that is in every letter that goes out to the students: Dress for physical activity while kneeling on the floor for this class; as it is a requirement to perform the skills for your certification card. I do not see anything rude or obnoxious about that simple statement. The table issue is an instant fail in AHA as well.

These were "community classes" (individuals sign up via email phone or in person somewhere), I have had no means of sending messages to prospective students. Otherwise I'd also say buy the manual, or at least read it online, before the class. The ARC chooses not to give their incoming students that warning about expected physical activities.
 

UnkiEMT

Forum Truck Monkey
Premium Member
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Alright, since no one seems to be willing to actually debate me on this, I'll just do it myself!

[Fade to scene: A medium sized auditorium set up as a debate hall with stands for and audience.]

UR(M): Good Afternoon, and welcome to the 9th annual “Unkiereamus has been running calls instead of sleeping and might have finally slipped around the bend” debate, alternatively entitled “The is Unkiereamus a creepy, discomforting, perturbing, ethnocentric (American "traditionalist" male centric), egotistical troglodyte” debate. My name is Unkiereamus (Moderator), and I'll be moderating this debate. Without further ado, I'd like to introduce you to our guests, First up, representing Unkiereamus, we have Unkiereamus.

[Unkiereamus smiles and waves to moderate applause.]

UR(M): Next, representing Unkiereamus' imagination of the opposition, we have Unkiereamus (Opposition).

[Unkiereamus (Opposition) smiles and waves to thunderous applause, dislodged dust drifts down from the ceiling.]

UR(M): First, we have brief opening statements. First, Unkiereamus.

UR: Good afternoon, I'd like to thank everyone for coming out. I'm hoping in the course of this debate to adequately explain my position, and avoid any further misunderstandings. Again, Thank you.

[Lukewarm applause.]

UR(M): Thank you, next we'll hear from Unkiereamus (Opposition).

UR(O): Thank you for having me, and thank you for coming out. Its my goal in this debate to adequately represent my constituency, if I fail, I'm sure they'll let me know.

[Unkiereamus (Opposition) smiles warmly as the audience chuckles appreciatively.]

UR(M): Thank you. Moving right along, the first question goes to Unkiereamus (Opposition). What do you feel the role of clothing is, beyond protection and meeting minimum social modesty requirements?

UR(O): I'm glad you asked. As some of you may have noticed, I'm wearing a very well tailored suit today, and while it's not terribly comfortable, it makes me look gooooooooood. When I look good, I feel good, and I feel good about myself. It gives me more confidence. I wear this suit because I feel better about myself, and indeed the world, while I've got it on.

UR(M): Unkiereamus, any response?

UR: Yes, thank you. I in no way disagree with what Unkiereamus (Opposition) said. I just feel that he didn't take it far enough. In order to fully understand the position, we need to expand on what looking good means. It means that you're attractive, it means that you know that you're attractive, not only to yourself, but to the people around you. That attractiveness, and the knowledge of it, is where the ego boost comes from.

UR(M): Very well, the next question goes to Unkiereamus. You're on the record as saying, and I quote, "That being said, you can't tell me that a plunging neckline is designed to do anything but divert blood from my brain, or that a draping neckline isn't designed to distract me. Hell, even a sweetheart or surplice catches my eye more often than I'd like.". Doesn't that contradict what you just said, and imply that you feel dressing in a revealing manner is all about it's effect on men, and even imply that it's about you personally?

UR: First, I should say that I probably didn't express myself very clearly in that quote, as I was quite drunk when I said it.

[Audience murmurs.]

UR: That being said, what I was trying to express is that there are consequences that may be divorced from the motivation of any choice. Although dressing for attraction may be designed to elicit general attention and approval, as a member of the general populace, it will elicit a specific reaction in me. Trust me, I know women aren't trying to attract me in particular, but I'll take what I can get.

[Audience laughs.]

UR(M): Very well. Unkiereamus (Opposition), would you care to make a rebuttal?

UR(O): Well, leaving aside the dubious judgment displayed by my opponent by posting under the influence, I'm struck by something in what my opponent said. The way he speaks of "being distracted" by a woman's decolletage implies that he not only objectifies women, but further more blames them for "distracting him".

UR(M): I'll allow a rebuttal of the rebuttal if you'd like to make one, Unkiereamus.

UR: I believe I would, yes. First, as to the allegation of objectification, I'll say simply that it's patently false. There's no possible way you could have enough information to adequately judge how I treat women, however similarly, there's no way you'll take my word for it, so I see no point in further debate. Moving on to the matter of distraction, outside of instances of social warfare, I no more think it's the fault of a woman distracting me with her breasts than I do think it's the fault of a sunset being pretty that it caught my eye. Moreover, I don't generally find those distractions unwelcome, and as I've said before, in the instances where I would find the distraction unwelcome, I have developed mechanisms to avoid them.

UR(M): That's an interesting concept you brought up, "Social warfare.". I'm assuming that you're making a tongue in cheek reference to the exertion of influence over other people by means of interpersonal relationships?

[Unkiereamus nods.]

(ed note: Okay, that one was a little...a lot...contrived, but I'm tired and couldn't think of a better way to introduce it.)

UR(M): Unkiereamus (Opposition), any thoughts?

UR(O): As much as I'd love to tell you that it's a blatant falsehood, it certainly happens that women use physical attractiveness as a weapon in “Social warfare”. It's not common, it's even relatively rare, but it does happen. I would like to point out, however, that men do the same thing. The tactics may vary between the genders, but the strategy remains the same.

UR(M): Unkiereamus, your response?

UR: I really have nothing to add, I agree with Unkiereamus (Opposition), and you know how that makes me crazy.

UR(M): And that's all the time we have today, I'd like to thank the audience for their attention and our guest for their civil debate. Any last words?

UR(O): I'd just like to say that you're looking good, Unkiereamus.

UR: Thanks, it's the suit.

[Fade to black]
 
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