"Getting close to" * Teacher

Rin

Forum Captain
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Your casual dismissal has taught me the error of my ways.

I'll just get back home now. I see now that I'm to blame for all my troubles for leaving the kitchen in the first place. I'll just stay indoors like a good girl, only go out accompanied by a male relative, and I won't have any more problems. ::rolleyes:: right back atcha
 
OP
OP
mycrofft

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
11,322
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I started this about some of my students' unrealistic costume selections.

It has become a personal thing for some people.

Maybe the mods will lock this and let the discussion move elsewhere? The juice is out of this one.

:deadhorse:
 

ExpatMedic0

MS, NRP
2,229
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ThadeusJ

Forum Lieutenant
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I only have one (on my vocal chords that reads "If you can read this, you are too close").
 

Aidey

Community Leader Emeritus
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I started this about some of my students' unrealistic costume selections.

It has become a personal thing for some people.

Maybe the mods will lock this and let the discussion move elsewhere? The juice is out of this one.

:deadhorse:

I am disinclined to acquiesce to this request. You started a thread with some very sexist overtones and go figure, this turned into a post about sexist attitudes. Considering how women are vastly outnumbered in this field a think a little education is a good thing.

Interesting post on LinkedIn (for those with accounts) this morning that sums up the views posted here:

https://www.linkedin.com/today/post...at-your-tattoos?trk=tod-home-art-list-large_0

No, just, no. As much as I hate the word entitled, that is what this attitude screams to me. You are not entitled to stare at someone just because they're showing skin or tattoos. Their body is still their body and you need to respect that, especially if they say something to you. You don't get to keep staring just because you think something they adorned themselves with is an invitation.
 

ExpatMedic0

MS, NRP
2,229
261
83
We could really dig into this topic with micro-analysis of cognitive behavior, especially if we where to use the theory of dramaturgical analysis. I don't really believe that is necessary though. I think at the end of the day people can present themselves publicly however they choose. However its easy to cross into the social grey area of glancing versus staring, and practicality versus excess. However, when one decides to attend a formal training event, I believe its a reasonable request to mandate a dress code for both genders of business casual and clothing that does not interfere with the ability to accomplish psycho-motor objectives. Even if they are not medical professionals and are paying customers.
 

Aidey

Community Leader Emeritus
4,800
11
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So here is where I take major issue with a lot of the attitudes expressed in this thread. What makes you think that attracting male attention is the damn goal? A guy is at the gym, or doing manual labor, or it is a hot day out and he takes his shirt off, and the assumption is he is hot and wants to cool off. Doesn't generally matter what his body size/shape is, no one really bats an eye or makes a comment.

But a woman can not work out in just a sports bra, or even a tank top, or wear a bikini top without the assumption being that she just wants attention. And if her body isn't "good enough" she is told to cover up. Because it is obviously all about the feelings of the people forced to look at her, and not about how she feels.

We have places in this world that stick women in a burka so their bodies don't distract men and cause lustful thoughts. Showing an arm or an ankle is unacceptable because it is too much skin. Guess what, we're not the ones sexualizing our bodies and what we wear, it is something be done to us.

It doesn't matter what we wear. We still get oogled. It doesn't matter why we wear it, and if we are only doing for ourselves. Men still assume it is for their benefit, and act like it is for their benefit. Same goes for makeup. Newsflash, we do not do everything to attract your attention. We do and wear certain things because we like it, it makes us feel good or we're just plain freaking hot. Not because it has anything to do with a man.

I really hate that my choices are either cover up in loose clothing or have people assume I'm trying to attract attention. As has been pointed out earlier, a short woman may be in a perfectly "respectable" top...until they come across a guy who is 8 inches taller. A woman gains 5lbs and suddenly her every day jeans are skin tight on her butt. So now she has to wear different pants, just to avoid someone thinking she wants attention.

I really can not express how frustrating it is to have to plan your entire wardrobe around not getting unwanted attention. Or how frustrating that attention really can be. Even if you don't think you're being creepy you are very likely not the first guy to give us unwanted attention that day.

Someone talked about women giving men "elevator eyes", yeah I hate to burst your bubble, we're not always checking you out in a sexual way, we're doing a freaking threat assessment. I know all men aren't a threat, but when 1 in 4 college women have been sexualy assaulted, we tend to be a little skittish.
 

MonkeyArrow

Forum Asst. Chief
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So here is where I take major issue with a lot of the attitudes expressed in this thread. What makes you think that attracting male attention is the damn goal? A guy is at the gym, or doing manual labor, or it is a hot day out and he takes his shirt off, and the assumption is he is hot and wants to cool off. Doesn't generally matter what his body size/shape is, no one really bats an eye or makes a comment.

But a woman can not work out in just a sports bra, or even a tank top, or wear a bikini top without the assumption being that she just wants attention. And if her body isn't "good enough" she is told to cover up. Because it is obviously all about the feelings of the people forced to look at her, and not about how she feels.

Someone talked about women giving men "elevator eyes", yeah I hate to burst your bubble, we're not always checking you out in a sexual way, we're doing a freaking threat assessment. I know all men aren't a threat, but when 1 in 4 college women have been sexualy assaulted, we tend to be a little skittish.

Ok. So as a guy who has previously posted in this thread, let me try to respond to some of these...allegations.

First of all, I don't assume a shirtless guy is wanting attention but I/we (me and my friends) do look at certain guys as attention grabbers depending on the situation. Example: Guy jogging on beach shirtless. Cool. Guy working out doing crunches at the (frigid) gym. Attention wannabe. Furthermore, I don't see a problem with a woman wearing a sports bra to exercise. Just because I notice a woman wearing a sports bra doesn't mean that I automatically think that she wants attention.

About the middle section of your reply that I edited out for brevity, women don't have to look a certain way for men to notice them. Do you think in the middle east where women are covered up, men don't notice them? Men don't assume that a woman wears what she does for him. However, a man does and will take notice of such choices. How do you think relationships start? Your mentality is that we SHOULD be in the middle eastern segregated setting where men and women have no interaction. Have different religious institutions, have different times and places for eating, etc. Why does a woman have to change what she is wearing again? As if you said, you're not doing it for a guy, then she shouldn't have to change out of the 5 lbs. bigger jeans. Only when a woman wants to look good in someone else's view would she logically change her pants. If she didn't care, well, she just wouldn't care what people thought about her skin tight jeans. If you wanna wear clothes because, "we're just plain freaking hot," then you must expect the reactions of men who also view you as being freaking hot.

The elevator eyes and threat assessment comment is the part that really bugs me as a guy. What the hell happened to founding principles of this country? The bill of rights, the right to a lawyer. The fundamental basis of our justice system: innocent until proven guilty. If you view every guy as a threat, you either need to move or look at your attitude (towards guys) through a new perspective. Why shouldn't guys be able to give girls "elevator eyes" and conduct their/our own threat assessment on you? Female prisons do exist. Females all around the world are arrested, charged, and convicted of crimes every day across this great country. Why do you automatically get to play an innocent card and villanize us when we are doing the same thing. Us looking at you (collectively) is the same thing as you looking at us with elevator eyes. The only difference is that you get to apply a double standard and "justify" your actions while we become the scum of the earth.
 
OP
OP
mycrofft

mycrofft

Still crazy but elsewhere
11,322
47
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Patience over. My last look at this thread. Messages welcome.

The thread was started honestly but apparently some subjects can't be brought up in this open forum without it beckoning a food fight. I guess this group of participants were not the right audience, or it might have been better down in the subjectless section.

Here's my sexist overtone: I have had female students come to class dressed inappropriately for doing the class work. Some also flirt for the teacher. I don't like being subjected to it. I tried to state that with more weasel words but that is the flat out truth. I'm old enough and have been around long enough to know when I'm getting pitched at. I blame the Red Cross for not specifying in pre class communication that the class includes getting down on all fours, and lying down on the floor and being rolled over, and being grabbed across the chest and bent over from the side, and abdominal thrusts.

As far as education for the male members of the field about and by the undertrodden females (who are outnumbered), fine. I agree. A lot of it is due to ignorance, some is because some guys want it to be a mysogynistic boy's club (yes, not men's club). Guys, listen up, and I say go back and read the thread about "You know you're a female in EMS when" or nearly identical wording. Get a clue about your female co-workers and potential partners.

How can I "understand anything about females"? I'm a father of one, a husband of one, a brother of one, I belong in a profession which is 97% female, and I've had to struggle through my professional college and promotion because of sexism against me. I've gone to bat for military promotion of deserving females in my military units. So can it. You don't have the creds. Make your statements about yourselves and not about others.

Obviously this doesn't apply equally or to everyone, and I'm anticipating some mod backlash. So be it.

Aidey, thanks for the "disinclined" thing. It was the classiest and best-humored entry so far. :beerchug:
 

MonkeyArrow

Forum Asst. Chief
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Sorry for taking this off-topic of the original purpose of this thread, mycrofft. Maybe the mods can separate the off-topic parts of this discussion and make it its own thread in a more appropriate place of the forum to keep this thread from derailing any further. I, for my part, will no longer respond off-topic to this thread. If anyone wants to take it further, start a new thread or PM me and I'll be happy to further discuss my position on the topic(s).

As for the OP, yes. Certain people will continue to dress in certain ways. I know you said ARC will not let you set a dress code in the pre-participant e-mail, so maybe make it clear to incoming students. Refuse to admit students that don't meet your dress code. I don't know. ARC will probably shut you down very quickly on that one. If you were AHA and thus an independent contractor, I would suggest you make it [dress code] part of the user's agreement as a part of signing up with you through your AHA independent venue (website).
 
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