Equipment missuse

[DPM]

There are a few things that are at least noteworthy if not undeniable.

The equipment was not his, nor is city equipment purchased, maintained and serviced so that individuals can use for personal gain. It doesn't belong to the chief or even to the mayor. So who signs off on the personal use of city equipment?

I really can’t blame the star struck lover too much, someone had to sign off on the misuse of departmental equipment. I would be suspect that the councilpersons that set the budget would not consider this to be appropriate designated use. The person who signed off should be held liable. In private sector business these actions could be prosecutable.

The cost is most likely more than pizza. The real world cost of manpower in the fire and police departments, fuel, and wear on the equipment should be considerably more than pizza. What would privately renting similar equipment and crew have cost? Ultimately, what does it matter how much it is? If it only cost 5 bucks it was still not his to use or his bosses to give.

How can this possibly be good PR when it demonstrates gross management sloppiness? Oh, I am sure that the soap opera crowd will love it but working people should know that their companies don’t operate with public disregard to their investors and management principles. The business owners should surely notice.

The blatant disregard for proper management of public resources expressed by posters hints of a generalized condoning of a serious management flaw. It makes me think that the misuse of resources may be more prevalent and far reaching than Salt Lake City. Why would someone be a serious professional on one hand, and wink at resource mishandling on the other. I don’t think the dichotomy of man is an argument with legal standing.

Well, at least he got the girl, imagine the story if she had said no.

The cost of hiring the equipment is irrelevant. The fire fighters weren't called in especially, they were getting paid no matter what they did that day. The apparatus and equipment can be used at the company officer's discretion
for training and running errands... so it's two birds with one stone. The truck company got to practice using their equipment down town, and the guy got to propose to his girl friend at the same time.

It's not resource mishandling. It was a cost effective way to paint both Fire and PD in a good light (whether you think so or not) and believe it or not, there was training benefit to the whole event. Stop being such a boner and lighten up will you?

 

[sir.shocksalot]

There are a few things that are at least noteworthy if not undeniable.

The equipment was not his, nor is city equipment purchased, maintained and serviced so that individuals can use for personal gain. It doesn't belong to the chief or even to the mayor. So who signs off on the personal use of city equipment?

Really? what else do you think the ladder truck should be doing in the middle of the day? Sitting around playing x-box in the station? I don't see any misuse of equipment that was likely not being used anyway.

I really can’t blame the star struck lover too much, someone had to sign off on the misuse of departmental equipment. I would be suspect that the councilpersons that set the budget would not consider this to be appropriate designated use. The person who signed off should be held liable. In private sector business these actions could be prosecutable.

Do you run or own a business? Ever worked for a private ambulance company? A manager drove a supervisor truck to a local pizza joint and bought 30 pizzas for all of the crews, is this a misuse of company equipment? Should we fire him?
Today I went to a restaurant on shift, then drove up the street and took a nap in the ambulance, then drove to a nearby redbox and rented a movie and watched it in the ambulance. Last week I did all my grocery shopping while in the ambulance, on shift. Am I a bad employee? Was I misusing company equipment? What would have been a better use of my time? Picking my nose while sitting at a street corner with the ambulance off to conserve gas?

Waste is an inherent part of business however if it serves to improve company moral then the money is not wasted. And I am sure had that happened at my work I would have been thrilled that my management let them do that.

The cost is most likely more than pizza. The real world cost of manpower in the fire and police departments, fuel, and wear on the equipment should be considerably more than pizza. What would privately renting similar equipment and crew have cost? Ultimately, what does it matter how much it is? If it only cost 5 bucks it was still not his to use or his bosses to give.

So no more driving to the grocery store for food? What should the fire department be doing in their down time? Laying in bed to conserve calories so they don't have to eat as much?

How can this possibly be good PR when it demonstrates gross management sloppiness? Oh, I am sure that the soap opera crowd will love it but working people should know that their companies don’t operate with public disregard to their investors and management principles. The business owners should surely notice.

You know, I actually was really happy for the guy when I heard the story. I thought "Wow, what an awesome way to propose, and she is hot to boot, good for him!" It's one of those "Aww!" stories, not one of those "what crap, what a waste of money" like a story in DC where the FD was out filling a swimming pool while everyone in the city was running calls. Why do you feel the need to rain on this dudes parade for something that probably cost all of $10 in gas to drive down to the office and maybe an hour of time where people weren't doing anything anyway?

The blatant disregard for proper management of public resources expressed by posters hints of a generalized condoning of a serious management flaw. It makes me think that the misuse of resources may be more prevalent and far reaching than Salt Lake City. Why would someone be a serious professional on one hand, and wink at resource mishandling on the other. I don’t think the dichotomy of man is an argument with legal standing.

I really think you have never worked before in your life. I normally don't single people out and pick on them, but really? I don't think a single person anywhere I have worked has not wasted company time or resources in a far more blatant way than this. People have moved furniture on shift, people have had IVs for hangovers, countless hours driving to restaurants, countless hours going to stores and running errands while at work. We work more hours than most other "professions" and sometimes we have to do home things while at work, if you don't understand and sympathize then I don't think you have ever had gainful employment.

Leave this happy couple alone, if you have a huge issue with FD "wasting money and time" then you need to get out there and start writing letters to every FD, EMS and PD agency in the US because I know my current employer (a private ambulance company), all my previous employers, and every FD I have worked with would absolutely accommodate this couple. And to the happy couple: congratulations; to the guy that proposed: she's hot, nice work.

 

[DesertMedic66]

So then is having an ambulance or fire engine attend a funeral a misuse of equipment?

By your defination I misuse equipment all the time for the EMT class (ie bringing equipment to the classes, bringing equipment to study groups, bringing the ambulance to special events for the EMT program). However I have clearence from the supervisors and higher ups.

Our mechanics car broke down so he has been using an old ambulance (with no equipment) to get him to and from work of course with the supervisors permission.

As long as it is cleared thru the right people then it is not an issue at all. Most of the "misuse" of equipment can be turned into a PR or training event.

We will send ambulances to school events for free with on duty crews. Misuse of equipment or PR?

When I have a student rider or brand new EMT I will have them strip out IVs and use other equipment that has a one time use. It's considered training and the company has no problem with it.

 

[PVC]

How can we equate using equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars with the cost of pizza or a guy playing x-box on company time? (mentioned by someone else as I have not implied that this is true)

How do we equate proposing to a girl with the interment of a fallen comrade?

I would not make any of these comparisons.

An opinion on good management means a person has never worked or owned a business? Really? You will find a huge difference of opinion between business owners and employees. Some employees would possibly think that skimming is ok. Owners guarding their bottom line would surely disagree. For bosses skimming is stealing. Period.

I must have really hit a sore spot. I apologize to all for any moral discomfort my opinions might have caused.

 

[DesertMedic66]

How can we equate using equipment that cost hundreds of thousands of dollars with the cost of pizza or a guy playing x-box on company time? (mentioned by someone else as I have not implied that this is true)

How do we equate proposing to a girl with the interment of a fallen comrade?

I would not make any of these comparisons.

An opinion on good management means a person has never worked or owned a business? Really? You will find a huge difference of opinion between business owners and employees. Some employees would possibly think that skimming is ok. Owners guarding their bottom line would surely disagree. For bosses skimming is stealing. Period.

I must have really hit a sore spot. I apologize to all for any moral discomfort my opinions might have caused.

We weren't making that comparison. The issue of misuse of equipment was brought up. The issue of misuse was using the unit/engine/ladder for anything other then what it was made for. Since it was made to fight fires is it a misuse of equipment if it is used for anything other then that (ie funerals, PR events, going to the store for food.)

 

[Undaedalus]

I apologize to all for any moral discomfort my opinions might have caused.

As near as I can tell, the only one experiencing any moral discomfort is you. This is crazy. If you have ever driven your ambulance/engine to the grocery store (or, ridden along while your partner/s did so, for that matter), then you are every bit as culpable as those you indict here. Get over yourself, and stop being such a hypocrite.

 

[leoemt]

What is the issue and where is the "fraud"?

First off it was an ON-DUTY firefighter. He is being paid whether he sits at the station, is doing training, or is on a call.

Second, the ladder truck - as with any equipment - costs more sitting than when it is being used. Using equipment, especially vehicles, in a routine manner keeps the equipment in excellent condition.

Third, they most likely had permission to do this.

Forth, it is a training exercise. Let them practice using the equipment.

Those ladders can be stowed and the truck on its way to a call in under 5 minutes. I've seen them do that at fill the boot events.

How is this any different than them deploying a ladder for charity or PR. Your tax dollars weren't wasted, They were still able to respond to calls and they didn't deprive the taxpayer of one thing.

I suppose you think its a waste of taxdollars for them to eat too.

 

[Veneficus]

wow

After reading this I was going to type something about professionalism, comraderie, moral, PR, and just being human.

But rather I think this sums up my thoughts perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VdO4fOAGzsM

Nothing personal, I would say the same thing to anyone I have ever shared the experience of standing in harm's way with.

 

[PVC]

Nothing to get bent out of shape over boys and girls. Interesting thoughts and stimulating insight from all.

Especially the you need a girl youtube link.

Cheers.

 

[DrParasite]

it's great PR, the equipment wasn't taken out of service (it's pretty easy to have the ladder put back in its bed and go on a job), the only person who is complaining about it is YOU!

I'm curious, would you complain if a crew takes apparatus to the store to get food too? what about if the ambulance crew goes to a bookstore to get a book? or dunkin donuts or star bucks for coffee? what about going out of service for training at the fire academy? I know, you would be fired up if the chief of the department took his chief's car home to his house (which is in town) to have lunch with his wife and kids, since it's a gross missuse of taxpayer equipment.

oh, I know, you would complain about the crew who was posted on a street corner in 101 degree weather since they were running the truck to have the AC working, or in 40 degree weather running the truck so they can have the heat working, because they were wasting fuel by having the truck running. I know some ambulance owners who would agree with you, and those are usually the same people who can't understand why they can't keep any halfway decent employee for longer than 6 months, or just don't care because they view their staff as a replaceable warm body whose sole purpose in living is to generate them money.

I agree with rwik123, get the stick out of your *** and realize that this is a good thing, and any expenses that were occurred were offset by the amount of positive public relations that it generated.

and it is the fact that some people who work in EMS throw a hissy fit about positive things that other agencies do like this are why people don't consider EMS to be a real professions. this is the epitome of pettiness and someone trying to make mountains out of molehills

 

[medic417]

How is using a tax payer dollar for personal gain great PR? This is crap. And drparasite don't start personal attacks to try and justify your opinion. If you and others are allowed to express your opinions then so are those of us that feel just a strongly the opposite direction.

Really a ladder in the air doesn't delay response? Horse crap. Several minutes would be lost in response if that piece of equipment were needed.

 

[Veneficus]

Really a ladder in the air doesn't delay response? Horse crap. Several minutes would be lost in response if that piece of equipment were needed.

I would call this speculation.

Does it take longer to put a power ladder back compared to making sure dinner is off the stove, changing out of work out cloths into a duty uniform, going to the restroom, or just taking a minute to get up off the couch?

Does the apparatus not being at the station make a significant difference in response time compared to SSM?

Plus I saw not only the ladder co, but an engine there too. Anyone who has spent anytime in a large urban department knows that certain companies work harder...uh, I mean, get more calls than others...

Obviously clearing an entire station for a PR event means the station is not exactly busy.

It might even be the official or unofficial designated PR station. (Everyone knows larger organizations have "those" stations that they always put in front of the camera.)

Throughout my career I was usually with the shift, unit, or station that was designated "the most capable and hardcore badasses that under no circumstance are ever placed in front of a camera, reporter, or public gathering event unless absolutely involved in an emergency response there.

Every department, public or private, has its poster children for stuff like this.

You think myself and my collegues didn't laugh everytime an organization we were with didn't wind up in some publication or news clip featuring the organization at a station that might run 3 calls a day if they were busy and never showed or even admitted to "the 'hood units?"

Somebody has to run calls and somebody has to polish the trucks twice a day to look pretty for the cameras.

If EMS "wasted" as much money as the fire service in PR, perhaps it wouldn't be in the mess that it is in?

 

[DrParasite]

How is using a tax payer dollar for personal gain great PR? This is crap.

you are really going to scream fraud and waste on a once in a lifetime (for the firefighter) event?

ok, fine, how about this: were any runs delayed? if so, I'm sure the news would have jumped on it. were any lives lost? if so, I'm sure the news would have jumped on it.

outside of a few on here (and i'm sure some more anonymous voices on the web), how many people actually think this was a waste? now compare that to how many people smiled when they saw the clip, thought it was awesome and a very memorable way for this firefighter to propose, or at least something that doesn't warrant the moral outrage that some are claiming it is. want to bet it's a 1:10 ratio? maybe even 1:100?

but your right, this is a major crisis, and people should be disciplined for their action and role in this scandal. we should call it "proposal gate!!!"

And drparasite don't start personal attacks to try and justify your opinion. If you and others are allowed to express your opinions then so are those of us that feel just a strongly the opposite direction.

I'm sorry for the personal attack. maybe the terms "too tightly wound," "need to focus on real issues instead of imaginary ones," or "someone who has too much free time on their hands and is jealous that they didn't think of it first" would be better?

You're right, you are entitled to express your opinion. I happen to think you are wrong, as do most rational people on here, but you are still entitled to feel the way you do.

Really a ladder in the air doesn't delay response? Horse crap. Several minutes would be lost in response if that piece of equipment were needed.

and I'm sure the ladder is never detailed to schools for public education, demos for dog and pony shoes, training at the academy, nor is the ladder joints never lubricated by the crew, nor taken to the city mechanic for minor maintenance while still in service.

again, you are making a big issue of something when no issue exists.

If EMS "wasted" as much money as the fire service in PR, perhaps it wouldn't be in the mess that it is in?

quoted for both truth and accuracy.

Plus we wouldn't have to beg for money, staffing or support from the public, and we could live on just one job and have enough staffing and equipment to do our job right.

 

[JakeEMTP]

I would call this speculation.

Does it take longer to put a power ladder back compared to making sure dinner is off the stove, changing out of work out cloths into a duty uniform, going to the restroom, or just taking a minute to get up off the couch?

To do it correctly and safely, absolutely. Get in a hurry, miss a step and things happen that seriously damage the truck and possibly cause harm to anyone close to it.

 

[Veneficus]

To do it correctly and safely, absolutely. Get in a hurry, miss a step and things happen that seriously damage the truck and possibly cause harm to anyone close to it.

You should work with some of the truckies I have had the honor of working with.

2-3 minutes topps. (assuming the ladder was fully extended.)

edit: including the outriggers, foot plates, and wheel chocks.

 

[Jon]

Hey gang - let's tone it down. I don't want to need to lock this thread.

 

[Joe]

You should work with some of the truckies I have had the honor of working with.

2-3 minutes topps. (assuming the ladder was fully extended.)

edit: including the outriggers, foot plates, and wheel chocks.

This!

Unrelated to quote: In my system the truck(quint,ladder,whatever you want to call it) is very rarely first up for a medical aid. Usually the engine amd patrol take the response. Never been a problem around here with the truck missing a call

 

[NYMedic828]

Some of the people in this thread are the reason the country sucks.

Lighten up and stop ruining life for the rest of us.

It probably takes me 3 minutes tops to put the ladder away with one other guy...

And odds are our response will be INCREASED because we are all in the truck already ready to go after stowing the ladder.

 

[DesertMedic66]

How is using a tax payer dollar for personal gain great PR?

Well they did get on the Internet because of it and are receiving attention (not just by us). So I'm gonna call it a successful PR event.

 

[NYMedic828]

This is what I have concluded about some people in this thread.