EMT'Bs and minimum wage

[ExpatMedic0]

And there should be no comparison in wages between nurses and EMTs/paramedics, its traning versus education for the most part. No comparison.

Easy for you to say.... Maybe you should google Portland Community College and look at the RN vs Paramedic AAS. The paramedic program actually has more hours, and both degrees are the minimum mandatory to practice in the state with the exact same gen ed and science classes. The only difference is Paramedics filing reciprocity can get a probational cert with there medical directors approval to either finish a bachelors degree in any field or an AAS in paramedicene. The nurses can do something similar at some of the teaching hospitals from my understanding like OHSU... and our pay is tens of thosands of dollars less than a jr college RN

 

[MrBrown]

In New Zealand a Technician level Ambulance Officer makes about $40,000NZD, a Paramedic level Officer around $52,000 and for Intensive Care between $60-$65,000.

Those salaries are for a guarenteed 42 hours per week with no overtime and two paid breaks. Downtime is spent in the station watching telly not sitting at some crappy gas station coz Jack Stout sold your company system status management.

Australia has much better pay where Paramedic level Officers start out at about $60,000 AUD and with overtime $100,000 is not unheard of. Intensive Care Paramedics in Australia earn significantly more.

Bear in mind that each of these levels in both nations with the exception of our Technicians requires a Bachelors Degree or Graduate qualification and extensive experience.

While our industrial representation is not as good as Australia here in NZ we have one collective barganing body (FAOUNZ) which also helps.

I really feel bad for the US Ambo who gets $10 an hour or something stupid like that.

A friend of mine told me he was getting $12 as what we would call an Intensive Care Paramedic, he saw an ad for a restaurant dishwasher who didn't even have to speak English and the pay was $12.50

 

[CAOX3]

Easy for you to say.... Maybe you should google Portland Community College and look at the RN vs Paramedic AAS. The paramedic program actually has more hours, and both degrees are the minimum mandatory to practice in the state with the exact same gen ed and science classes. The only difference is Paramedics filing reciprocity can get a probational cert with there medical directors approval to either finish a bachelors degree in any field or an AAS in paramedicene. The nurses can do something similar at some of the teaching hospitals from my understanding like OHSU... and our pay is tens of thosands of dollars less than a jr college RN

Thats why I stated for the most part, I was aware there were a few areas that require degreed EMS provider in the US. I believe if you carry a degree requirement you should be compensated as such and your practices/protocols should reflect your educational background.

Maybe if we offered salary increase with degreed paramedics and a more liberal protocol policy we would see more providers opt for that route. The problem I see is why in this economy would a paramedic choose the degree route when there would likely be no increase in compensation? I believe everyone should have an education but I cant fault somone taken the certification class because of the limitations of a paramedic degree and without any additional compensation. I would be hard pressed to go to paramedic school for four years to attain a degree that with one wrong step or injury it would be useless to me financially. Thats why I believe you should get your degree then take a paramedic class, god for bid you sustain an injury you still have a usefull degree to fall back on.

Not saying any degree is useless but Im guessing a paramedic degree may be limited in other oppurtunities away from EMS if an injury was to occur.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

we make less than your EMT-B's with our degree's.

 

[CAOX3]

we make less than your EMT-B's with our degree's.

Well the average isnt twenty five its closer to eighteen, twenty-five is top out at around twenty three years of service and I think they know its difficult for anyone to do this job for that amount of time without breaking down physically.

 

[Cake]

There's a surplus of EMT-Bs everywhere, and they just aren't worth paying more due to that and that they're not educated enough to be worth more

what about EMTs with a BA degree? are there any benefits to having a college degree in this position?

 

[TransportJockey]

what about EMTs with a BA degree? are there any benefits to having a college degree in this position?

As an EMT-B I'd be suprised if a company that the person would be applying for would care.

 

[usafmedic45]

Nope. As a former supervisor, it's not going to make a dang bit of difference in terms of pay. It's like saying "I have a degree in art history so when you hire me as an electrical engineer (something completely unrelated), I deserve to make more". Now, the degree might help you in getting hired or it might hurt you depending upon how the person reviewing the application chooses to look at them but suffice to say you're not going to get any extra money simply for having a bachelors degree while working as a run of the mill EMT-B.

 

[firemed17]

EMT's here working for the county start at 13.38 without any experience and top out at 19.67. Medics start at 14.08, and top out at 20.70 an hour. Being a firefighter aswell, adds about 2-3 on top of that. I looked up an EMS Captain and they top out at 47.95 an hour h34r:

 

[8jimi8]

Easy for you to say.... Maybe you should google Portland Community College and look at the RN vs Paramedic AAS. The paramedic program actually has more hours, and both degrees are the minimum mandatory to practice in the state with the exact same gen ed and science classes. The only difference is Paramedics filing reciprocity can get a probational cert with there medical directors approval to either finish a bachelors degree in any field or an AAS in paramedicene. The nurses can do something similar at some of the teaching hospitals from my understanding like OHSU... and our pay is tens of thosands of dollars less than a jr college RN

Shulz I always see you comparing RN and Paramedic as if they are equivalent.

RNs are concerned with much more than acls and woo woos. Paramedics go and get them and stabilize/resuscitate and then drop them off.

When we get them, we keep them alive long term, without a break. Now multiply that by 8 patient's at once. Now multiply that by educating and overall organizing and managing all aspects of healthcare in their life/ health situation so that they can improve long term and stay out of the situations you rescue them from.

We get one 30 minute break, IF we get a break (sure its mandated, heck they automatically take it out of my check... regardless of my taking the break or not) When have you gone on a 12 hour emergency run? a 16 hour emergency run? Ever done an MCI solo? Because believe me, It's not the same.

Maybe you have to take the same microbiology class, but you are involved in fixing a life threat and delivering the patient to definitive care. Then you can wash your hands and go back to sleep. I'm not saying one is better than the other because, as everyone probably knows - i'd rather be a paramedic than a nurse, but i knew i had more opportunities with an RN, than an EMT behind my name.

For everyone who is complaining that you don't make enough as a basic... GO BACK TO SCHOOL. 120 hours is NOTHING. The training is SO EASY, i took it on the side, while I was in nursing school.

25 bucks an hour for abc's and some triangle bandages?! I make less than 25$ an hour as my base. I have to give up the daytime AND weekend life to make more than that. I don't get paid to sleep. I don't get paid to work out. I don't get paid to barbecue. I don't get paid to play video games, OR study. Are you so busy that you do nothing but work for 12 hours straight---- then yeah, you deserve more money, but a Paramedic does not coordinate the Healthcare TEAM.

I'm responsible for maintaining the integrity of a total life of a person. When you go to work are you Daddy for 8 people all at once? Ok, maybe you get a critical patient.... that's some total care action, but still... are you taking care of 2-3 critical patients for even more than an hour?

How long are you taking care of those patients? Then you drop them off and go get to write a report for an hour before you even return to service...I know you bust your ***, but believe me, step into my world and you will know the meaning of grinding out some hours on your feet.

Again - please don't read some type of soapbox, holier than thou mentality. No i've never been paid for EMS, but i have pulled 72 hour weeks on the box. NOWHERE near as stressful as what I do now. AND i work HALF that many hours.

The shift I just finished this morning was 17 hours. with no break. (illegal btw. Texas BON forbids a nurse from doing patient care for more than 16 in a row)

 

[usafmedic45]

I make less than 25$ an hour as my base

You need to move then or at least switch hospitals.

 

[46Young]

I am not sure where your getting your information. But according to the FDNY website which publicly post salary information a Paramedic(non fire fighter) tops out in 5 years at $59.079 and a firefighter at $76,488 for base salary. An EMT-B is After 5 Years $45,834. It does not provide any additional information regarding how much fringe benefits the Paramedic or EMT gets, only that the salary quote is a base salary and does not include fringe benefits in that amount.
Also, why will you not tell us where an EMT-B can make $25 an hour at a private company? I might believe an NYC hospital based system could pay an EMT-B that giving the cost of living in NYC.... but I am still interested to hear where this is offered.

When I left NYC in 2007, private EMT's made around 9.50-13/hr, medics 19-22. My hospital paid EMT's from 15-20/hr, medics 22-33/hr. Night diff is 10%. Union hospitals such as JHMC pay were topping out their EMT's at around 23-24/hr, medics at around 35. Remember that night diff is 10% extra, so if you do tour 2's or 3's (evenings/overnights), that's an extra 2 bucks an hour or so for EMT's.

As far as FDNY EMS, I think they pay 9% into their pension for their entire career, whereas the FF's do not after a few years. So, the quoted EMS salaries are a misrepresentation of their actual income in that regard.

 

[akflightmedic]

In New Zealand a Technician level Ambulance Officer makes about $40,000NZD, a Paramedic level Officer around $52,000 and for Intensive Care between $60-$65,000.

40000 NZD = 27,547 USD
52000 NZD = 35,812 USD
60000 NZD = 41,321 USD

If you wanna compare apples to apples, then do it properly. As you can see, the NZ wages are not much higher and actually lower for some levels than the American counterparts.

http://www.alliedhealthworld.com/emt_paramedic/salary.html

EMT-Bs can expect to make between $22,000 and $34,000 yearly, while EMT-I’s salaries can be as high as $42,000.

In the earlier part of their careers, paramedics can expect salaries that range between $28,000 and $40,000 depending on the state in which they work. After several years of experience, paramedics will routinely earn between $50,000 and $70,000 working for a state agency or hospital.

Australia has much better pay where Paramedic level Officers start out at about $60,000 AUD and with overtime $100,000 is not unheard of. Intensive Care Paramedics in Australia earn significantly more.

60,000 AUD = 50,527 USD
100,000 AUD = 84,000 USD

Again, there is no comparison. Wages are very similar depending on the part of the country and actually lower than some parts.

I really feel bad for the US Ambo who gets $10 an hour or something stupid like that.

$10 an hour working 40 hours a week is 20,800 per year. What is more common is a 24 on 48 off which has built in over time to the salary as well as additional opportunities for over time. The common EMT salary will be between the pay range stated above and due to the over time factored in, the hourly rates will be lower, but at the end of the day, they are still on par with NZ for a lot less education.

I am not advocating less education, just noting the flaws in your argument or your choice to not use a currency converter when debating.

PLUS, we have not even discussed living costs which always have a huge impact on the level of pay being received in an area. If we put daily living expenses side by side along with these very similar salaries, who would have the better deal?

 

[Shishkabob]

RNs are concerned with much more than acls and woo woos. Paramedics go and get them and stabilize/resuscitate and then drop them off. When we get them, we keep them alive long term, without a break. Now multiply that by 8 patient's at once. Now multiply that by educating and overall organizing and managing all aspects of healthcare in their life/ health situation so that they can improve long term and stay out of the situations you rescue them from.

Jimi, two different specialties with two different expectations in knowledge.

A new grad medic should school a new grad nurse in the realm of cardiology with ease.

Nurses are generalist, they have a working knowledge in the breadth of medicine. Paramedics, by design or accident, are specialist, with a deep knowledge in a narrow field, mainly in just emergency medicine.

You yourself have stated you want to be a medic for the things they don't teach, or teach much of, in nursing school.


Sure, education is lacking, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

 

[DrParasite]

And Parasite I hope you work in one of the Townships as opposed to Trenton or Camden.

actually, I work in one of the busiest systems in NJ, in a :censored::censored::censored::censored:ty city. coworkers and friends of mine work in Trenton for Trenton EMS, and, I have done a few shifts in the town next to Trenton, but never applied to TEMS (not a big fans of the vanbulances that they use for all 911 calls).

And camden EMS is run by UMDNJ in Newark

also, you can compare the skill set of an RN and an medic, but the workload for an ER nurse or ICU nurse is much higher than that of a medic. but i am pretty sure a medic in a busy system works harder than an RN on a medsurg floor, or ortho, or psych, or peds, or same day surgery. not all nurses work with sick and crashing patients on a regular basis. but those ER & ICU nurses definitely earn their keep.

 

[46Young]

Thats why I stated for the most part, I was aware there were a few areas that require degreed EMS provider in the US. I believe if you carry a degree requirement you should be compensated as such and your practices/protocols should reflect your educational background.

Maybe if we offered salary increase with degreed paramedics and a more liberal protocol policy we would see more providers opt for that route. The problem I see is why in this economy would a paramedic choose the degree route when there would likely be no increase in compensation? I believe everyone should have an education but I cant fault somone taken the certification class because of the limitations of a paramedic degree and without any additional compensation. I would be hard pressed to go to paramedic school for four years to attain a degree that with one wrong step or injury it would be useless to me financially. Thats why I believe you should get your degree then take a paramedic class, god for bid you sustain an injury you still have a usefull degree to fall back on.

Not saying any degree is useless but Im guessing a paramedic degree may be limited in other oppurtunities away from EMS if an injury was to occur.

I've been saying that for a while, and occasionally taking heat for it.

I chose a 13 month medic cert program over three years for nursing school. I could have done the two year degree at LaGuardia for EMS, but I had a family to support, I didn't have the extra year or two to screw around while we go deeper into debt. I reasoned that after passing the medic class I would be making almost as much as a nurse, only 10 grand less if that, and then do nursing with a liveable wage.

Like you say, an EMS degree is basically useless here if you get injured. The EMS career ladder is quite limited. It's common knowledge in the industry. If you go down with an injury, you can be a dispatcher. You don't need a degree for that, only a HS diploma and some OJT with EMD. My county is currently hiring at around 40k starting. As far as a degree, one member pointed out that there are mid to upper level admin positions available for those with a four year healthcare degree, and that nurses are taking those positions. The thing is, having a four year EMS degree is no guarantee to get the position. Given that those admin jobs, and also supervisor positions in EMS are so few to begin with (and are awarded by favoritism more often than not), there aren't many that are willing to make the four year investment, or even a two year investment in education for a payoff that's uncertain at best.

In fact, not too long ago, Charleston County EMS advertised for the position of Assistant Director. When I worked there, medics started at 38k/yr, and topped out at 60k after 10 years. The director position paid in the mid 60's to mid 80's. I'm making more than that now (okay, I'm fire based, but still...), and I've only been on the job a little over two years, no degree required.

That brings up another point of mine. If education was so valuable to the industry, these hospitals, muni EMS and fire depts alike would either require degrees, or at least give weight in hiring to those with degrees. But most don't. The vast majority of EMS employers could care less if you have a degree, only if your cert is good, if you have a valid license, and are not a criminal or psych case. As such, holding a degree holds no benefit in hiring or compensation, so why should we make that leap of faith, so to speak, with a degree when it's not going to increase your bottom line? I'm not going to spend the next 15-20 years or more as a financial martyr just to help the cause. Going through life living paycheck to paycheck and retiring poor is no fun.

The only reason I'm completing my EMS degree at the present is because my dept gives educational points for promotions, requires a 2 year to test for LT, and a four year to test for Capt II and above. I only needed around 20 credits to finish, it'll be only ten after the summer. These credits will also apply to the nursing program as well. So, unless you live overseas or in Oregon, the only benefit in having an EMS degree is the overlap of some of the classes, and that some nursing programs will give preference in acceptance to those already holding a degree.

 

[8jimi8]

You need to move then or at least switch hospitals.

Not with my career path and my situation. I've read many times your endorsement against flying, but that is my goal. I'm at my areas level 1 trauma center, I've given up working in an ICU at a level 3 trauma center to get into this hospital. I'm almost done with my year long commitment to the current floor that I am on and received an invitation to move into the ICU here when my time commitment has been fulfilled.


Austin has unseasonably low wages because of the SHEER NURSING OVERSATURATION... When I applied to this position the manager told me that I was 1 of 10 out of 250 applicants interviewed for my position. We have at least 5 quality schools churning out nurses every 5-6 months, not to mention that austin is in one of the top 10 cities to move to in the US right now AND one of the few cities where the housing market is GROWING, not dying, like the rest of the country.

Yes, I should be making more money, but I also started at this hospital less than a year ago and i'm looking at, at least a 5% paygrade increase, as i'm promoting to my next clinical ladder position this month. I'm in school, with plans for more school (austin community college to finish my paramedic certificate - ACC happens to be the only school that ATCEMS will hire inexperienced paramedics from.) So yah, i'm feeling the dollar squeeze too, but I'm gonna do what everyone else does... work twice as hard.

 

[8jimi8]

Jimi, two different specialties with two different expectations in knowledge.

A new grad medic should school a new grad nurse in the realm of cardiology with ease.

Nurses are generalist, they have a working knowledge in the breadth of medicine. Paramedics, by design or accident, are specialist, with a deep knowledge in a narrow field, mainly in just emergency medicine.

You yourself have stated you want to be a medic for the things they don't teach, or teach much of, in nursing school.


Sure, education is lacking, but that doesn't mean it's not there.

not my intention to imply that Paramedics don't have education, but rather that their utilization is short term. You don't use a paramedic for long term care. Not being a soldier I hope no one calls me out for using the anecdote and comparing it war. Long moments of boredom waiting for seconds of sheer terror. Where as nursing is like long slow hours of pure torture and unceasing hell... (lol)

 

[8jimi8]

but i am pretty sure a medic in a busy system works harder than an RN on a medsurg floor, or ortho, or psych, or peds, or same day surgery. not all nurses work with sick and crashing patients on a regular basis. but those ER & ICU nurses definitely earn their keep.

Sorry bud, you are WRONG. Med surg nurses BUST their asses.

The overall acuity of the general population floors is increasing, not geometrically, but exponentionally, for sure. I'm on a cardiac stepdown unit, the most patient's i've ever charted on was 11, in a 12 hour shift. Med surg floors are the dumping ground for the "less critical." You see at the level 1 trauma center i'm at, when we go on code max, that means those in the ICU/ED/OBs/IMC units who could possibly be shifted to make room for the newly admitted critical patients will get shifted down. It hasn't been uncommon that the house supervisor will have to be called in to rescue the poor med surg nurse who receives critical patients (by taking some of their patients away, so they can have the time that it takes to monitor said critical patients effectively)

Prime example. Code max (meaning so many patients the hospital will run out of beds and goes on Trauma Priority Diversions) I receive a patient who was transferred minutes prior to shift change (a parting shot from the day shift IMC nurse). The nurse I received report from did not assess her patient, merely took vitals and tucked the patient in. I get on shift, receive report and think to myself... hmm something's fishy. I go and assess the patient. Anisocoria. Call the doc. Stat Stroke alert, stat orders for CTs/MRIs among other running around for the patient. Yet i have 5 other patients who are now on autopilot because someone's brain is dying. Called the house sup, who comes and redistributes my patients because there are no IMC or ICU beds open, the patient isn't going to be moving and i'm having to monitor the patient on a floor inadequately equipped to do so. As i said, exponential increase in acuity on our general medicine floors now. And having done the job of ICU RN and Med Surg RN, I've never been so busy as to be on a med surg floor. The time savings from being in ICU is that only have to divide your attention between 2-3 people, rather than 8. Not to mention people are MUCH more difficult to deal with when they are awake and not on a ventilator. Ventilator patients don't ask you for tea and crumpets or 5 packets of sugar, or phenergan w/ their ham sammich (no you b*stard you are here for pancreatitis - i'm not feeding you, nor am i giving you phenergan and "dilardid" at the same time, i don't care if that's the "ONLY" thing that takes away your pain) oh and btw, i sh*t the bed and can you wipe mah hiney. At least in the ICU you are allowed to drop a tube in their *** so you can manage the excrements!

 

[TransportJockey]

I'll second what 8jimi8 is saying about med-surge nurses working their tails off. I worked on an Oncology unit at one of the major hospitals in ABQ, and we wound up getting the overflow from every other floor, including med-surge. I'll gladly take my full load of Onc patients over half a load of med-surge They are just a pain to manage.