EMT'Bs and minimum wage

[8jimi8]

I'll second what 8jimi8 is saying about med-surge nurses working their tails off. I worked on an Oncology unit at one of the major hospitals in ABQ, and we wound up getting the overflow from every other floor, including med-surge. I'll gladly take my full load of Onc patients over half a load of med-surge They are just a pain to manage.

exactly. Med surg = dumping ground, acuity be damned. And the clinical assistants may or may not be there because they "need" them in the higher acuity floors.

and the doc says can we do q 2 vitals on this floor... i look and say... do you see a monitor in the room?

 

[ExpatMedic0]

Shulz I always see you comparing RN and Paramedic as if they are equivalent.

RNs are concerned with much more than acls and woo woos. Paramedics go and get them and stabilize/resuscitate and then drop them off.

When we get them, we keep them alive long term, without a break. Now multiply that by 8 patient's at once. Now multiply that by educating and overall organizing and managing all aspects of healthcare in their life/ health situation so that they can improve long term and stay out of the situations you rescue them from.

We get one 30 minute break, IF we get a break (sure its mandated, heck they automatically take it out of my check... regardless of my taking the break or not) When have you gone on a 12 hour emergency run? a 16 hour emergency run? Ever done an MCI solo? Because believe me, It's not the same.

Ummm listen, the above poster said it came down to education vs training. Thats what I was replying to regarding my state. The Paramedic training at the jr college level is the exact same. The degrees and classes are identical other than the programs themselves. So yes, of course I compare them. If you look back and read you will see that.
One of my best friends is an R.N. My bicycling racing partner is an R.N. we get a long great. Nursing is a very hard job and I respect the nurses very much. I am sad to see from your comments you do not feel the same about Paramedics compared to nurses even though you are trying to become a Paramedic.

I am thrilled to see you think that Paramedics are into "woo hoo's" and acls. Maybe they are where you are from. Or maybe you should talk to those of us in Oregon, or the ICP's in in New Zealand, Australia, or South Africa. I can bet you they beg to differ. Your a smart cookie and I enjoy reading your post, they are often filled with great information. However I feel bashing paramedics and using terms like "woo hoo's" on a forum called EMTLIFE is not the best place.

 

[wijjiam]

it might have to do whith the union

I herd that EMT-Bs in my state start around 14$/hr but it might have to do with the agency or it might have to do with the union

 

[wijjiam]

I heard that EMT-Bs in my state start around 14$/hr but it might have to do with the agency or it might have to do with the union

Disclaimer: I’m but a silly student and only know what I’m told by my already EMT friends at the agency that I am going through school through and until I get my NREMT-B I won’t be able to know for my self

 

[8jimi8]

Ummm listen, the above poster said it came down to education vs training. Thats what I was replying to regarding my state. The Paramedic training at the jr college level is the exact same. The degrees and classes are identical other than the programs themselves. So yes, of course I compare them. If you look back and read you will see that.
One of my best friends is an R.N. My bicycling racing partner is an R.N. we get a long great. Nursing is a very hard job and I respect the nurses very much. I am sad to see from your comments you do not feel the same about Paramedics compared to nurses even though you are trying to become a Paramedic.

I am thrilled to see you think that Paramedics are into "woo hoo's" and acls. Maybe they are where you are from. Or maybe you should talk to those of us in Oregon, or the ICP's in in New Zealand, Australia, or South Africa. I can bet you they beg to differ. Your a smart cookie and I enjoy reading your post, they are often filled with great information. However I feel bashing paramedics and using terms like "woo hoo's" on a forum called EMTLIFE is not the best place.

Schulz,

reading your response, makes me feel a bit embarassed. It also impresses upon me that i should not be posting when i've been awake for more than 24 and working for as long as I did.

I wasn't trying to say that RNs are more educated. My esteem of the paramedicine specialty really is high. I went into nursing at the suggestion of a firefighter capatin (ironically enough, who I met rockclimbing in oregon- a bit north of the ashland area)... and only because of the job security and the opportunities to move around in different areas of the country / specialties.

Airway control and Cardiology hands down, Paramedics know more. I work on a cardiac unit right now and I STILL haven't learned more than you all learn.

But my hardest days on the ambulance still can't even cast a shadow on the difficulties encountered in nursing.

I think the biggest difference is the time spent with the patient and the sheer volume of patient care. I guess right now, all I can do is apologize for coming off insulting / condescending and count my blessings that nursing isn't as poorly compensated as EMS.

Maybe the lack of compensation comes from the ease of entry into the profession.

 

[TraprMike]

I heard that EMT-Bs in my state start around 14$/hr but it might have to do with the agency or it might have to do with the union

Disclaimer: I’m but a silly student and only know what I’m told by my already EMT friends at the agency that I am going through school through and until I get my NREMT-B I won’t be able to know for my self

So with this new found information, EMT's and Para's don't get paid squat, and never will, any well educated person will find a job that pays what they want to earn, and attempt to land THAT job.
if not, staying at any job that you know you will be paid starvation wages, carry around a brick, and have sleepless nights, will be alright with you.. because YOU chose to be employed as an emt, because you know and agreed to the wages when You agreed to work for the company..

so stop belly aching about the pay, you dont' like it, go do something else, sounds like a bunch of Union whiners around here... dont' like something ,,, LEAVE,,, duh !!!

 

[Shishkabob]

I think the biggest difference is the time spent with the patient and the sheer volume of patient care.

Eh, do a shift with MedStar in Ft Worth where they do 14-18 calls in 12 hours ^_^


Plus, just to be fair, running a crashing patient in the field is A LOT more challenging than in the hospital, where you not only have a controlled environment, but medical providers above you, specialist on call, and all the equipment you need. h34r:

 

[rescue99]

Schulz,

reading your response, makes me feel a bit embarassed. It also impresses upon me that i should not be posting when i've been awake for more than 24 and working for as long as I did.

I wasn't trying to say that RNs are more educated. My esteem of the paramedicine specialty really is high. I went into nursing at the suggestion of a firefighter capatin (ironically enough, who I met rockclimbing in oregon- a bit north of the ashland area)... and only because of the job security and the opportunities to move around in different areas of the country / specialties.

Airway control and Cardiology hands down, Paramedics know more. I work on a cardiac unit right now and I STILL haven't learned more than you all learn.

But my hardest days on the ambulance still can't even cast a shadow on the difficulties encountered in nursing.

I think the biggest difference is the time spent with the patient and the sheer volume of patient care. I guess right now, all I can do is apologize for coming off insulting / condescending and count my blessings that nursing isn't as poorly compensated as EMS.

Maybe the lack of compensation comes from the ease of entry into the profession.

Day nurses may (may is a suggestion, not a fact) do more hands on care than tech's do but, I've worked 2nd shift on the acute floors and no way on this earth do those lazy so-n-so's even come close the amount of patient care a tech does. NOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYY. Nurses sit on their butts writing notes on thier 4 patiients after getting 90% of thier info from tech's, who each have 12-16 patients......this is obscenus care. Unfortunatly, it is the norm in adult medicine.

 

[dudemanguy]

So I'm finally hired on with an agency and now just waiting for paperwork from the state. Making a whole $8.55 an hour with not much room to rise. It's what I expected...I'm not here for the money...but sh*t. Isn't it comforting to know that in a life-threatening emergency, the person saving your *** is making minimum wage?!

Why do EMT-Bs make so little? From what I gather it's the same everywhere. Are there really so many of us?

The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.

EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions.

There isnt really any point in complaining about the low pay. If someone wants decent pay, become a nurse, x ray tech or some other health care profession that requires a decent education. Or at least get paramedic certified.

 

[rescue99]

The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.

EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions. =QUOTE]

Where are people practicing at the Basic level? Around here, Basics work their hind ends off, often so our poor, poor Medics don't have to take those lowly BLS runs....might break a nail or something. IMO, the pay is certainly not equal to the work involved. 10 bucks is low as far as I'm concerned but, it is the going rate.

All EMT's (and again in Medic class) should have to do a solid month in a large urban area as a part of training so people understand just what a Basic EMT encounters in a typical work day. These constant slams against our Basic level tells me most have never really done the job to any extent. Any nursing home-row call can turn ugly in an instant...and frequently does! I think it is about time we stopped crapping on Basics and start saying thanks for the work they do once in a while.

 

[wijjiam]

So with this new found information, EMT's and Para's don't get paid squat, and never will, any well educated person will find a job that pays what they want to earn, and attempt to land THAT job.
if not, staying at any job that you know you will be paid starvation wages, carry around a brick, and have sleepless nights, will be alright with you.. because YOU chose to be employed as an emt, because you know and agreed to the wages when You agreed to work for the company..

so stop belly aching about the pay, you dont' like it, go do something else, sounds like a bunch of Union whiners around here... dont' like something ,,, LEAVE,,, duh !!!

yo I wasn’t tiring to piss and moun . As far as I know that’s starting (exgirlfrends mom told me) 14$/hr is really good in the Seattle area. I don’t care if I’m in a union or not there’s no problem I was just trying to be a part of the conversation my dream is to be an EMT I don’t if I’m not paid or making the same as the poor kid serving my bigmac with a large order of french-fries and a coke.

 

[looker]

The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.

EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions. =QUOTE]

Where are people practicing at the Basic level? Around here, Basics work their hind ends off, often so our poor, poor Medics don't have to take those lowly BLS runs....might break a nail or something. IMO, the pay is certainly not equal to the work involved. 10 bucks is low as far as I'm concerned but, it is the going rate.

All EMT's (and again in Medic class) should have to do a solid month in a large urban area as a part of training so people understand just what a Basic EMT encounters in a typical work day. These constant slams against our Basic level tells me most have never really done the job to any extent. Any nursing home-row call can turn ugly in an instant...and frequently does! I think it is about time we stopped crapping on Basics and start saying thanks for the work they do once in a while.

What skills does basic have? How long does it take someone to become basic? How easy or hard is it find a replacement for basic? This is all that determines what pay someone gets. Reality is that it's pretty easy to become basic and even easier for ems provider to find a replacement. As such there is no necessity for ems provider to pay more than what market demands. Regarding nursing home-row call turning ugly in an instant, basic either calls 911 and gets paramedic unit to respond or rush them to the nearest hospital with l &s if they determine it will take them less time compare to medic to come.

 

[8jimi8]

Day nurses may (may is a suggestion, not a fact) do more hands on care than tech's do but, I've worked 2nd shift on the acute floors and no way on this earth do those lazy so-n-so's even come close the amount of patient care a tech does. NOOOOOOO WAYYYYYYY. Nurses sit on their butts writing notes on thier 4 patiients after getting 90% of thier info from tech's, who each have 12-16 patients......this is obscenus care. Unfortunatly, it is the norm in adult medicine.

This is nothing but ignorance. I work nights and more often without a tech. And those "notes" that we take are not what the techs tell us. Techs are not educated enough to provide evaluations of treatments or conditions so your suggestion that we just write down what they tell us is pure BS, unless they are providing a measurement of urine, the number and color/ consistency of stools, or vitals. I'm often leaving almost 2 hours after shift change because I'm too busy doing patient care and my charting gets done once the shift change comes and relieves me. I take up to 8 patients, you must be in CA or some ohe state tht mandates a 1:4 ratio. I WISH I only took 4. But now, we are completely off topic. I'll chill in the cut for now, if anyone else wants to continue this, let's do it in another thread.

 

[rescue99]

This is nothing but ignorance. I work nights and more often without a tech. And those "notes" that we take are not what the techs tell us. Techs are not educated enough to provide evaluations of treatments or conditions so your suggestion that we just write down what they tell us is pure BS, unless they are providing a measurement of urine, the number and color/ consistency of stools, or vitals. I'm often leaving almost 2 hours after shift change because I'm too busy doing patient care and my charting gets done once the shift change comes and relieves me. I take up to 8 patients, you must be in CA or some ohe state tht mandates a 1:4 ratio. I WISH I only took 4. But now, we are completely off topic. I'll chill in the cut for now, if anyone else wants to continue this, let's do it in another thread.

Ignorance my tush....I've been there and done it so please...stop pretending.
The floors I worked were step down and acute. So many of our folks were so very sick. Nurses topped out at 5 while techs got anywhere from 10-32 and NO, I am not suggesting nurses took our notes.....I am saying it was absolute fact! Few nurses got off their butts except to do meds and last vitals. There were a few good ones but not many. Not many at all.

I will say that ER, ICU, CCU, PEDs and Post-OP are run quite differently and everyone is busy no matter which shift.

 

[8jimi8]

Ignorance my tush....I've been there and done it so please...stop pretending.
The floors I worked were step down and acute. So many of our folks were so very sick. Nurses topped out at 5 while techs got anywhere from 10-32 and NO, I am not suggesting nurses took our notes.....I am saying it was absolute fact! Few nurses got off their butts except to do meds and last vitals. There were a few good ones but not many. Not many at all.

I will say that ER, ICU, CCU, PEDs and Post-OP are run quite differently and everyone is busy no matter which shift.

I think you are the one pretending. If you are doing nursing care and doing their assessments, why aren't you a nurse? Edited to say, in fact why dont you post up your job desciption because I doubt you did much more than your job. So tell us what hospital this is so I can warn everyone not to go there because they have pcts doing nursing care.

 

[AVPU]

The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.

EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions.

There isnt really any point in complaining about the low pay. If someone wants decent pay, become a nurse, x ray tech or some other health care profession that requires a decent education. Or at least get paramedic certified.

Wow. Lots of judgement in these posts. Dude, I know what I'm getting in to. I left a well-paying, cushy career in corporate Amer to be a part of EMS b/c I WANTED TO. I am fully capable of taking personal responsibility for my choices. I was just surprised at the pay, that's all. And I wanted to get others' perspectives, esp. since I'm new to the field. Reading these posts, apparently I touched off a sensitive topic for some. I'm not a complainer, and don't like being labeled as one. I like discussion. If you don't believe me, do a search for some of the other threads I have started.

 

[emt seeking first job]

1. the cost of living may make $8.55/hr the same as $15 in NYC.

2. EMT's do get some down time.

3. I would rather be an EMT making less, and keep exspenses down, than have a higher paying time sucking job that killed me inside.

4. You should do the best for your patients because it is the right thing to do, not for $.

Just keep at it, do your best, go to paramedic school, and see what your options are after 3 years of experieince.

 

[WolfmanHarris]

Education leads to improved conditions.
In Ontario Primary Care Paramedics (BLS) make between $28 and $38/hr depending on the area of the province (higher in higher cost of living areas) and gross about 70-80k before OT. There were two main causes of this:
1) The downloading of EMS from provincial jurisdiction (and a hodgepodge of government, private, hospital, volunteer etc) to Upper Tier Municipalities (Counties/Regions) and a nearly universal provider model (Municipal Third Service).
2) The increase in PCP education from one year to two years.

Talking to most medics who worked 10 years ago when the downloading happened and the increase in education shortly thereafter, they say that EMS has improved by leaps and bounds. Paramedics can support a home and family comfortably on their incomes, have good benefits and pension and we're seeing increases in recognition and respect by the public (nice) and the greater health care community (essential to progressing further).

There seems to be a great deal of cart before the horse thinking whenever the topics of pay, respect, working conditions, etc come up. All these providers want these things, but seem resistant to creating the conditions that make them possible first.

 

[TransportJockey]

Education leads to improved conditions.
In Ontario Primary Care Paramedics (BLS) make between $28 and $38/hr depending on the area of the province (higher in higher cost of living areas) and gross about 70-80k before OT. There were two main causes of this:
1) The downloading of EMS from provincial jurisdiction (and a hodgepodge of government, private, hospital, volunteer etc) to Upper Tier Municipalities (Counties/Regions) and a nearly universal provider model (Municipal Third Service).
2) The increase in PCP education from one year to two years.

Talking to most medics who worked 10 years ago when the downloading happened and the increase in education shortly thereafter, they say that EMS has improved by leaps and bounds. Paramedics can support a home and family comfortably on their incomes, have good benefits and pension and we're seeing increases in recognition and respect by the public (nice) and the greater health care community (essential to progressing further).

There seems to be a great deal of cart before the horse thinking whenever the topics of pay, respect, working conditions, etc come up. All these providers want these things, but seem resistant to creating the conditions that make them possible first.

Sounds like Canada's model is one to start emulating here in the states. Then again anything is better than what we have currently

 

[DrParasite]

The thing is, rarely will an EMT-basic be saving anyones ***. The number of times that occurs seems pretty rare to me, especially if your talking about doing IFTs.

you know how many medics are doing IFTs? I believe Sasha and our "new" medic from Texas all do IFTs as their FT jobs, and they are both paramedics, and I know there are more there. Not only that, but EMTs do 911s, not just IFTs. Furthermore, if you don't believe that EMTs save anyone's ***, than I would assert that most people in EMS don't save anyone's ***; EMTs/Paramedics stabilize the patient as best they can, and transport them to the hospital for definitive care, where the doctors "save someone's ***."

EMT-Basic is a job that requires relatively little training, is not labor intensive, is a job many considering exciting and will do for free, and has a massive surplus of job seekers looking for a limited number of paid positions.

are you kidding me? not labor intensive? you don't consider carrying a 300 lbs person down three flights of stairs to be labor intensive? you don't consider 15 emergency jobs in a 12 hour shift to be labor intensive? relatively little training? well compared to some other training certs, sure. Then again, a nurse has relatively little training when compared to that of a nurse practitioner. Plus, while an EMT course is equivalent to a 6 college credit course, there are also many CEU classes and reputable agencies require before they will even look at you for a job.

There isnt really any point in complaining about the low pay. If someone wants decent pay, become a nurse, x ray tech or some other health care profession that requires a decent education. Or at least get paramedic certified.

everyone should be able to survive in their job. EMS pays poorly primarily due to low financial support from it's backers. Few are tax supported, and those are that do, still need to bill to stay "in the black." hospitals pay poorly so they can stay in the black based on revenue. and privates are only interested in making a profit, even if it's at the expense of the employee. Plus the whole "every employee is replaceable" doesn't help the situation.

Sounds like Canada's model is one to start emulating here in the states. Then again anything is better than what we have currently

So then move to Canada if you think our system is so bad, I'm sure you will be MUCH happier