EMT'Bs and minimum wage

[TransportJockey]

So then move to Canada if you think our system is so bad, I'm sure you will be MUCH happier

Nah, I'd much rather get my education and then work towards reforming the system here. Plus I like my guns WAY too much to move to Candada... or CA, or NY or NJ, or IL

 

[JPINFV]

you know how many medics are doing IFTs? I believe Sasha and our "new" medic from Texas all do IFTs as their FT jobs, and they are both paramedics, and I know there are more there. Not only that, but EMTs do 911s, not just IFTs. Furthermore, if you don't believe that EMTs save anyone's ***, than I would assert that most people in EMS don't save anyone's ***; EMTs/Paramedics stabilize the patient as best they can, and transport them to the hospital for definitive care, where the doctors "save someone's ***."

The vast majority of what EMTs do is transport (taxi service) and provide supplemental oxygen (which the vast majority of patients don't need). If you need to hype up the entire transport side (which puts EMS on par with "home boy ambulance services"), then maybe you need to reevaluate your motives.

are you kidding me? not labor intensive? you don't consider carrying a 300 lbs person down three flights of stairs to be labor intensive? you don't consider 15 emergency jobs in a 12 hour shift to be labor intensive?

Labor intensive is a relative term. I can name plenty of jobs that are much more intensive than EMS. Similarly, X jobs in X hours is a terrible way to look at it. If you want to look at it that way, caring for 15 patients, one at a time for short periods of time over a 12 hour shift puts prehospital care as relatively unintensive when compared to the patient loads that seen by nurses and physicians (who, unlike nurses, aren't legally limited to the number of patients they have to juggle). The patient to provider ratio is magnitudes higher in the ED compared to prehospital.

relatively little training? well compared to some other training certs, sure. Then again, a nurse has relatively little training when compared to that of a nurse practitioner. Plus, while an EMT course is equivalent to a 6 college credit course, there are also many CEU classes and reputable agencies require before they will even look at you for a job.

Really? The best thing you can use as evidence is college credits (which most EMT programs don't qualify for). Credits don't tell you how hard or, in the case of EMT training, insanely simplistic said training was. Heck, general chemistry, organic chemistry, and upperdivision cell biology were all worth 4 units. Are you going to try to tell me that those courses are somehow the same difficulty as each other and easier than a 120 or so hour EMT class. Please, tell me that EMT training is easier than organic chemistry based only on units.

everyone should be able to survive in their job. EMS pays poorly primarily due to low financial support from it's backers. Few are tax supported, and those are that do, still need to bill to stay "in the black." hospitals pay poorly so they can stay in the black based on revenue. and privates are only interested in making a profit, even if it's at the expense of the employee. Plus the whole "every employee is replaceable" doesn't help the situation.

EMS providers are paid less because supply far outstrips demand. That is the major reason and the best solution (increase education requirements) solves this by increasing demand (higher education means more uses and more usefulness) and decreasing supply (less idiots in the field who were barely able to rub 2 neurons together to figure out that you treat bleeding with pressure). Additionally, I'd argue that most individuals can supply on an EMS wage. Survive in a manner that they want to become accustomed to? No. However an iPhone, cable TV, broadband, and a brand new Lexus isn't necessary for survival. Similarly, raising a family on a single entry level wage isn't something that should be expected. It's the individuals job to manage their money and financial liabilities, not their employer.

So then move to Canada if you think our system is so bad, I'm sure you will be MUCH happier

Brilliant idea. Instead of trying to advance EMS in the US, we can just run out everyone who actually wants to promote and advance the field. Oh, wait, that's one of the reasons there's already a serious brain drain in the field.

 

[JPINFV]

Plus I like my guns WAY too much to move to Candada... or CA, or NY or NJ, or IL

3 words. McDonald v Chicago. 2nd amendment is an individual right that cannot be abridged by the individual states.

 

[TransportJockey]

3 words. McDonald v Chicago. 2nd amendment is an individual right that cannot be abridged by the individual states.

It's more of not being able to use any of them once I get there cause I have magazines that are illegal in each of those But I am very curious to see how that ruling changes state laws, since CA is a good example of not allowing certain types of firearms that are not already on their approved list.
Being from NM, state law cannot restrict any more than the state constitution did from the beginning, so it's a great state for shooters

 

[WolfmanHarris]

you know how many medics are doing IFTs?
not labor intensive? relatively little training? well compared to some other training certs, sure. So then move to Canada if you think our system is so bad, I'm sure you will be MUCH happier

Case in point. Deny shortcomings, shift blame and responsibility and suggest that those who do not do the same are not worthy, or some such rot. This approach while common, is certainly not productive.

Criticizing training and working conditions is not personal. It's not a question of motives or dedication. When I say 120 hours of training is not sufficient to train a competent provider of emergency care I am not saying "EMT Jones is an incompetent fool." I'm saying the system by which he was educated is failing the individual. When I say volunteerism is holding back EMS I'm not saying "Commitment to serving your community is starving my children." And yet it seems every time we try to discuss these issues in general, everyone looks for their personal experience to be the exception that disproves the rule, since if it were otherwise than they may not be the model provider they hoped they were. No one is doubting the individuals, just trying to get everyone onside the fixing the problem. (Speaking in abstract of course since I'm not actually involved in the American system at all) With a crappy foundation you can only build so high.

 

[Sassafras]

Call me a n00b, but recomending hard working American citizens move to another country instead of staying here and trying to improve what we have here seems rather inappropriate and xenophobic. Why should they move to Canada just because they think a portion of their healthcare system may be something worth considering for our broken system? How will that help Americans in the slightest by shipping off all the prehospital providers who want to see something change to Canada?

 

[somePerson]

EMT wages arent that horrible

People complain about being paid minimum wage, but in reality, depending on where you work, it's the easiest job and the income can be decent. I worked at Medix ambulance in south south Orange county as my first EMT job, my salery started at $8.00 hr. The normal full time schedule is 3 24's so 40 hrs at $8/hr and 32 hrs at $12/hr. With a little overtime I easily made 45-50k a year with my the "worthless" minimum wage. Anyone in EMS/FD industry knows people make a large part of their salery in OT anyway. Not a horrible job considering I could still go to school full time.

It might sound horrible having a low hourly wage, but it's the easiest money I ever made while watching TV, playing video games, working out, and sleeping.

People complain about Janitors or whatever making more an hour, but if you work 40 hours a week at $12 an hour in a normal 9-5 it's a lot less money than working 72 (32 hrs ot) making $8 an hour.

I'll take my mon/tues/thursday shifts I used to have with 4 days off and a 3 day weekend making minimum wage over any of those 9-5 jobs making more an hour. To each his own, but you can have the $16 an hr ER tech job being on your feet all day long (I realised that wasn't for me after my clinicals during medic school), while I take a nap at a station while running 3-6 calls a day on a 24.

On another note, working as a private Medic for a slightly higher hourly wage does get a little discouraging, while working 20 times harder and having more responsabilities/liability, but it's all good.

 

[Cake]

People complain about being paid minimum wage, but in reality, depending on where you work, it's the easiest job and the income can be decent. I worked at Medix ambulance in south south Orange county as my first EMT job, my salery started at $8.00 hr. The normal full time schedule is 3 24's so 40 hrs at $8/hr and 32 hrs at $12/hr. With a little overtime I easily made 45-50k a year with my the "worthless" minimum wage. Anyone in EMS/FD industry knows people make a large part of their salery in OT anyway. Not a horrible job considering I could still go to school full time.

It might sound horrible having a low hourly wage, but it's the easiest money I ever made while watching TV, playing video games, working out, and sleeping.

People complain about Janitors or whatever making more an hour, but if you work 40 hours a week at $12 an hour in a normal 9-5 it's a lot less money than working 72 (32 hrs ot) making $8 an hour.

I'll take my mon/tues/thursday shifts I used to have with 4 days off and a 3 day weekend making minimum wage over any of those 9-5 jobs making more an hour. To each his own, but you can have the $16 an hr ER tech job being on your feet all day long (I realised that wasn't for me after my clinicals during medic school), while I take a nap at a station while running 3-6 calls a day on a 24.

On another note, working as a private Medic for a slightly higher hourly wage does get a little discouraging, while working 20 times harder and having more responsabilities/liability, but it's all good.

how common is your setup though? Could your situation just be a diamond in the rough?

 

[ExpatMedic0]

As I stated before, I was an EMT-B in 2003 making $8.00 an hour and that also included some rescue services. There was no OT because I was a part time employee and I had no medical benefits, only a savings thing I could put MY OWN money into.
My friend was as an assistant manager at KFC making way more than me and had benefits. Plus my friend did not have to pay hundreds of dollars for training, hold a state and national certification(also hundreds of dollars) and had no CEU's to keep up on. Her job risk and risk of being sued or injured where also no where no where near mine. I was pulling people out of flaming wreckages and she was slinging chicken.

I know an EMT-B does not have the much education but there are just to many entry level positions to compare it to that require only on the job education, or a very small amount of vocational training or no education at all. Most of the jobs pay more.

 

[usalsfyre]

As I stated before, I was an EMT-B in 2003 making $8.00 an hour and that also included some rescue services. There was no OT because I was a part time employee and I had no medical benefits, only a savings thing I could put MY OWN money into.
My friend was as an assistant manager at KFC making way more than me and had benefits. Plus my friend did not have to pay hundreds of dollars for training, hold a state and national certification(also hundreds of dollars) and had no CEU's to keep up on. Her job risk and risk of being sued or injured where also no where no where near mine. I was pulling people out of flaming wreckages and she was slinging chicken.

I know an EMT-B does not have the much education but there are just to many entry level positions to compare it to that require only on the job education, or a very small amount of vocational training or no education at all. Most of the jobs pay more.

Schulz, how many people applied for your job? How many people applied for the KFC manager's job? There's the answer.

Our EMT's make in the range of $8/hr starting out. This is on a 24/48 work schedule, and a fair bit of overtime is included. When totaled, our basics make around 26k/yr, which is far more than minimum wage. In addition overtime is available for those who want to work it

 

[akflightmedic]

For reference, there are 5200 KFC restaurants in the United States.

So lets say 1 asst manager per store = 5200 jobs.

How many EMT positions are there in the USA?

This site says 600,000 EMTs and growing. However 600,000 people does not = 600,000 jobs...especially if you read on and get to the part where it says there are only 52,000 ambulances in the country.

http://www.naemt.org/become_a_member/careers/aboutems.aspx

Besides, management is much more difficult to learn and perform than EMS. Having made that leap a few years ago myself, it is amazing everything that goes on behind the scenes that the employees are not aware of. All they see is the easy stuff and an effective manager can make it look super easy to the uninformed.

EMT is pretty darn easy to learn and do. We simply can not over glorify ourselves which then leads us into that false sense of entitlement. Once you cross into that mode of thinking, it is very difficult to appreciate the big picture and realize how small your role within it actually is.

I am not saying EMTs are scum because my statements apply to all levels of EMS. For some reason, we think because we "save lives" daily, that we should be paid more even though our training is minimal currently (speaking for majority here).

When you keep it real and remind yourself it is a job which you perform to the best of your ability and nothing more, meaning it is NOT a lifestyle, then you can gain a sense of satisfaction when you get your paycheck because ultimately, we are overpaid for the qualifications and amount of work we do.

It is to easy to become an EMS worker therefore more people line up every day to take the job you may despise due to low pay. As you move on, someone else fills your slot and is happy to have that low wage. It is like digging a hole at the beach, it constantly fills in.

Until it becomes more difficult to enter the profession, meaning education standards are raised without the pay initially, nothing is going to change.

 

[sdadam]

Yep I agree AK,

Education standards must go up. Nothing will improve until that happens.

 

[WolfmanHarris]

Until it becomes more difficult to enter the profession, meaning education standards are raised without the pay initially, nothing is going to change.

I didn't intend to make my posts "Ontario EMS is awesome, here's why" but it does seem to provide some good contrast.

When I started my employment just over one year ago I was hired at my service in a group of 28.

Flashback two years ago and over 1000 applicants applied to enter the two year PCP program at my College for 45 spots. Applicants in Ontario are limited to applying to five schools and these rates are similar. There are 15 public PCP programs at Ontario Colleges. There are also 3 private college programs, but depending on who you ask they're borderline medic mills. Either way they run compressed programs more frequently. We can estimated between 750-1000 students beginning the program.

The average College program usually sees 40-50% attrition over the course of the program with some students failing due to academics, some failing to meet provincial standards for lifting, some failing clinicals/placement and other withdrawing by choice. 300-500 grads who will sit to write the provincial A-EMCA exam. Pass rates are fairly high here but a few still don't make it.

Of those that are graduated, not all will find a job in EMS right away. There are 50 municipal EMS services in Ontario (42 directly delivered as third service, 8 contracted either privately or by the hospital) and 7 First Nations EMS Services (all directly delivered third service). Not all areas of the province are expanding, so most are hiring for attrition more than service enhancements.

The transfer industry is entirely separate from EMS. Employees usually only require a first aid or First Responder certificate, though there are a fair number of PCP's that haven't found work yet wallowing in these jobs. Not a tonne though. Minimum wage in Ontario is now $10.75/hr and these jobs pay between $13 and $15. This industry's entirely unregulated though and in desperate need of reform.

It is not easy to get qualified to work here and it can be difficult to get a job, but once in EMS a Paramedic is making good money, with good benefits and is in a career. KFC is certainly not a competing employer.

 

[fortsmithman]

Instead of complaining how low EMT salaries are why not just go back to school and become paramedics.

 

[JPINFV]

I'd argue that the actual responsibilities (managing other works, customer service, inventory, money management, etc) is much greater for a manager than an EMT.

 

[AVPU]

Instead of complaining how low EMT salaries are why not just go back to school and become paramedics.

Well I just might if I like the work enough

 

[John E]

As the famous philosopher...

Chris Rock once said, "minimum wage means if they could pay you any less, they would..."

 

[DrParasite]

Instead of complaining how low EMT salaries are why not just go back to school and become paramedics.

Because medic salaries are pretty low too, and most medics I know work at least two jobs to make a decent living.

not only that, but I know places where an EMT working nights makes more per hour than a paramedic working days. really makes me want to go to medic school to make the big bucks.

 

[somePerson]

Because medic salaries are pretty low too, and most medics I know work at least two jobs to make a decent living.

not only that, but I know places where an EMT working nights makes more per hour than a paramedic working days. really makes me want to go to medic school to make the big bucks.

If you enjoy EMS in any capacity and want to make a career out of it, a medic is something you would want to be, atleast in my opinion. If you're doing EMS for the money... Not to belittle the EMT position, but it 99% of EMT calls, a taxi driver with a stretcher could do the same thing EMT's do with no difference in patient outcome.

Atleast as medic you can make a difference in patient outcome once in a while, even though a huge chunk of calls are BS.

 

[ExpatMedic0]

I am all for education, but if you guys think thats the only thing thats going to raise pay, your living in a fantasy world.
AKF you should know education alone in EMS will not raise pay sense you use to be an Oregon medic yourself. We have had a mandatory AAS program or bachelors in other fields in place for all Paramedics in Oregon for over 10 years. Portland has only one 911 contract and is the busiest EMS system in Oregon. The starting base wage for Paramedics last year was $39,000.