COVID VACCINE - The Megathread

[GMCmedic]

Lastly, do individuals own their own bodies or not? Does self-determination actually exist? Are people free to make choices that may not - in the opinion of others - be in their own self interests? Think about the potential ramifications of answering “no” to any of those questions.

At the risk of going down a political rabbit hole, the normal "my body my choice" crowd is nowhere to be found lately.

 

[ffemt8978]

At the risk of going down a political rabbit hole, the normal "my body my choice" crowd is nowhere to be found lately.

Depends on the cause, I'd say. But I agree we probably shouldn't go down that rabbit hole.

 

[Emily Starton]

Hey, brothers and sisters. My agency is making the vaccine available to us 12/28. What are your thoughts on the Pfizer vaccine. Will you get it if you have a choice?

If I only have it but If not, I would likely not since I don't have the virus. I always at home since the pandemic started so I can guarantee my safeness and I also maintain cleanliness in my place.

 

[Carlos Danger]

People owning their own bodies? I will harp on you now for repeatedly trotting out this strawman of self-determination. Nobody is forcing people to vaccinate for COVID! If it were so, we could have that debate, which has strong arguments for and against. But since that isn't so, that point of discussion is just silly to lean on.

Not yet, of course. There isn't enough available now, and the vaccine is being administered under EUA. But what happens when more is available and full approval has been granted? The idea of compulsory vaccination for everyone has already been floated by some state officials. If the courts disallow an outright government mandate, another idea is to incentivize employers to mandate vaccination for employees. It is also a popular idea in some circles that the public should have to show proof of vaccination to attend concerts and other public events. If any of those things happen, and public schools and colleges require the vaccine for attendance, then people ARE kind of being forced, aren't they? All that notwithstanding the constant attempts at placing undue social pressure and shame on those who may be able to articulate some pretty good reasons why they are skeptical of the necessity of them getting the vaccine. Trying to coerce someone to do something they don't want to do with their own body is a violation of autonomy, period. It doesn't matter if that coercion comes from a government official or a social media mob.

People are being asked to make a risk vs benefit decision (self-determination) with surprisingly good amounts of information available such that the decision should ideally be fairly straight forward for most people if they would listen to the risk analysis in unemotional terms from reliable source. I argue that it is straightforward for most even if you only look at risk-benefit selfishly and not from a greater good viewpoint. Sadly, it is external influences distorting the discussion that have made this a hard decision when piled upon natural cognitive biases.

Surprisingly good amounts of information available to who? The average Joe Citizen who does not regularly peruse JAMA or NEJM? The amount and quality of data means nothing to them. To most people, a decision like this comes down to whether or not they trust the source advising them to do something. I suspect that the large majority of reasonable folks who care enough about their own health to have a regular relationship with a primary care provider will eventually take the vaccine once reassured by that PCP. But in the minds of many people, the public authorities who right now are taking to the media to implore us all to take this vaccine as soon as possible haven't exactly done a lot to earn trust lately. We can easily think of several times in recent memory that the authorities did not seem to know what they were doing, and many more that they generally did not appear to many to have the best interest of the public at heart. Even seemingly unrelated political issues have bearing on people's general trust in what the government tells them. People might reasonably wonder why they should believe these officials on the necessity of getting this vaccine when they have such good reason to distrust them on so many other issues.

But none of that is even the main problem, because it isn't even really about trust to a lot of people. The fact is, after doing that risk vs benefit analysis that you mention, many people just aren't convinced that they personally need to get the vaccine. It isn't that they necessarily think the vaccine is unsafe, it's that they know that if they aren't in a high risk group, their chance of becoming seriously ill with COVID is extremely small, and they also know that as convincingly positive as all the trial data may be, there is still NO knowledge of the long-term efficacy and safety of the vaccine. So an individual who is young and healthy and who doesn't work in healthcare or regularly have contact with high-risk individuals could very reasonably wonder, "Why should I rush out to get this? All the people likely to get really sick with COVID will be vaccinated soon as will their healthcare providers, so what is the harm in me just passing on it at least until it's been around for a while?". You can blame that skepticism on cognitive biases or external influences if you want, but that thinking seems quite rational to me.

 

[VentMonkey]

It’s Christmas Eve. **** Covid, bros. Just for one night...

 

[jgmedic]

If I only have it but If not, I would likely not since I don't have the virus. I always at home since the pandemic started so I can guarantee my safeness and I also maintain cleanliness in my place.

Huh? So you wont get the vaccine unless you get COVID? That kinda defeats the purpose of a vaccine.

 

[jgmedic]

The problem here isn't the people in this thread making the argument pro or con. You guys all have reasonable educational levels and a basic understanding of the medicine behind this. That's at least a semi-informed decision you're making. There are FB posts galore about mRNA changing your DNA, or the govt using the vaccine to track people and take away their rights, or give them some sort of other diseases. These are the people I worry about, who've taken a hardline stance based on misinformation and/or pseudo-science. Just like your standard "dO yOuR OwN rEsEaRcH" anti-vaxxer.

 

[medichopeful]

I got Step 1 of the Pfizer vaccine. The only thing I noticed is better cell phone coverage from the 5G chip they implanted.

In all seriousness, the only side effects I had was a little arm tingling that went away, a little dizziness that went away, and feeling like a took a pretty good punch in the arm for about 36 hours. That's it. I'm sure Step 2 will be worse, but I'd rather feel like crap for a bit than get the Rona.

 

[Melch]

Hell yes!!!!!

Covid killed more people these last three hours than if the entire population of the US got the worst vaccine of the last 60 years. This vaccine is a no-brainer. Just get it.

This vaccine is particularly safe, but some of the side effects can be more than disconcerting. I had a sore arm (Pfizer, first dose only) and a little "malaise" for two days, but an acquaintance, who is an anesthesiologist, and one of the smartest doctors I ever met, actually had symptoms that mimicked a stroke and went to the ER. That was followed by a migraine.

But she is going back for the second dose.

And now that I have the microchip (are people really that stupid?), I can watch old movies and YouTube training in my head.

 

[Melch]

I am in charge of the vaccine program for the entire county where I work. My service was tasked by the state to control, deliver, and administer...I was tasked by my agency to be point man. Yay me! Zoom meetings out the *** thus far, info forthcoming. But yes, I will be getting the vaccine. Amazing how many of my peers who are completely against it.

Due to my food allergies I had great concern hearing the very broad "if you have ever reacted to food..." do not take it or take it with extreme caution. This annoyed me because every freaking article kept saying "food" and not which food. I think that would be very useful information ya know.

There were 10 paramedics and four nurses administering the vaccine, and in Vermont, even EMTs can administer Epinephrine from our stock with online approval. So having a shellfish allergy, I was fairly sure that if I did go into anaphylaxis, it wouldn't be a problem.

 

[Melch]

Good for you. Your virtue signaling game is tight .

Meanwhile, some of those who you are hoping get fired over not wanting the vaccine have truly been on the front lines (to correctly use an over-used phrase) of putting themselves at risk to take care of sick, infectious COVID patients every day of the past year: the intensivists, RNs, RRTs and CNAs who have worked double shifts and 7 day weeks at times because of the need. More than a few of whom actually got COVID, recovered, and went back to work as soon as they could. Even if you don't respect the ideas of autonomy and self-determination for normal people, do you really think that THESE FOLKS at least haven't earned the right to have some say in whether or not they are one of the guinea pigs?

I mean, does the vaccine really work in the real world, or not? If we aren't confident that it does, then we shouldn't be pushing it on anyone. If we are confident that it works, then all we really need to do in order to cut way down on M&M is to vaccinate the highest-risk populations, and anyone else that (voluntarily) takes the vaccine is just gravy. I just read about a poll that reported that about 60% of people said they will willingly take the vaccine, and 60% just happens to be roughly the percentage of the population that we need vaccinated in order to attain herd immunity (not that we really need "herd" immunity; we really just need older and sicker people to be immune). So perhaps the hard working, selfless healthcare workers who have been bearing most of the brunt of this all along don't really need to get "their resumes in order" after all.

There are enough people that should not take these vaccines that anyone who can should, and those who will not need to be out of circulation until COVID 19 is gone. 60% leaves room for it to stay alive and mutate meaning everyone has to take it again.

More people were killed these last three hours from Coronavirus than would be killed if every American was forced to take the worst vaccine of the last 60 years! If you can, do it.

Besides, I hear the microchip comes with a free year of Amazon Prime.

 

[Carlos Danger]

There are enough people that should not take these vaccines that anyone who can should, and those who will not need to be out of circulation until COVID 19 is gone. 60% leaves room for it to stay alive and mutate meaning everyone has to take it again.

More people were killed these last three hours from Coronavirus than would be killed if every American was forced to take the worst vaccine of the last 60 years! If you can, do it.

Besides, I hear the microchip comes with a free year of Amazon Prime.

Congratulations on missing the point completely.

 

[Melch]

Congratulations on missing the point completely.

I reread your post and think I got the point.

We need to do our duty. Our duty is to get vaccinated!!!!!!!

I qualify for two of the slots on your list and have about 40 employees who qualify on one or two points.

No one deserves anything. We are here to do our duty and stop this thing My employees, like me need to get vaccinated as soon as possible. In my state, my active volunteer EMT status got me the first shot on the 22cd (two weeks early, so I'm scared people are staying away in droves) and I'll be replacing any employee who refuses, except for medical reasons. They won't.

My father was an officer on a ship in WWII and he would be apoplectic at the thought of people who couldn't get a low-risk shot to help humanity. He gave up 3 years to help save the world; this is a much smaller request.

 

[Summit]

@VentMonkey I'm spending my day taking care of ICU COVID patients. Kind of hard not to think about it.

Not yet, of course. There isn't enough available now, and the vaccine is being administered under EUA. But what happens when more is available and full approval has been granted?

Not only is there not enough available, but mandating an EUA drug or vaccine is not kosher (unless you are the military). At the point of full FDA approval there will be orders of magnitude more safety data to go with it. In the meantime, you are hand-wringing about what people might maybe possibly do in the future... maybe. It is completely irrelevant to the current choices that Phase 1 recipients have... actually to anyone in any Phase until there is some sort of government mandate, which I don't expect. As far as private company requirements, as a good libertarian, I assume you are on board with "their business their rules," and a fully approved vaccine wouldn't be any different than influenza, varicella, MMR, Tdap or Hep B requirements by an employer. But at this point and in this thread, the topic is really just a speculative nonsequitor.

Surprisingly good amounts of information available to who? The average Joe Citizen who does not regularly peruse JAMA or NEJM?

To the Phase 1 recipients who are not average Joe Citizens! That is who is getting the vaccine now. That is who is in this thread. People who work in healthcare or public safety who typically have good access, if they want it, to information and experts.

The amount and quality of data means nothing to them. To most people, a decision like this comes down to whether or not they trust the source advising them to do something. I suspect that the large majority of reasonable folks who care enough about their own health to have a regular relationship with a primary care provider will eventually take the vaccine once reassured by that PCP. But in the minds of many people, the public authorities who right now are taking to the media to implore us all to take this vaccine as soon as possible haven't exactly done a lot to earn trust lately. We can easily think of several times in recent memory that the authorities did not seem to know what they were doing, and many more that they generally did not appear to many to have the best interest of the public at heart. Even seemingly unrelated political issues have bearing on people's general trust in what the government tells them. People might reasonably wonder why they should believe these officials on the necessity of getting this vaccine when they have such good reason to distrust them on so many other issues.

This is a well stated summary of some issues facing our society. I'll reemphasize your point about trusting PCPs. Studies suggest they are the most trusted source for the individual on the matter of vaccines.

they also know that as convincingly positive as all the trial data may be, there is still NO knowledge of the long-term efficacy and safety of the vaccine.

I've outlined why this is not an accurate statement. There is knowledge and strongly suggestive data. There is NOT incontrovertible proof. There IS a difference between those things. You know this. Many do not. When healthcare professionals conflate these things, they create unrealistic expectations that cause people to default inappropriately to their innate precautionary principle.

So an individual who is young and healthy and who doesn't work in healthcare or regularly have contact with high-risk individuals could very reasonably wonder, "Why should I rush out to get this? All the people likely to get really sick with COVID will be vaccinated soon as will their healthcare providers, so what is the harm in me just passing on it at least until it's been around for a while?". You can blame that skepticism on cognitive biases or external influences if you want, but that thinking seems quite rational to me.

The young healthy people who aren't involved in healthcare or high exposure are not going to even have a chance to get the vaccine until probably May or June. By then, 100s of million of people will have been vaccinated and there will be a year of data. The vaccine might even reach full FDA approval next summer or fall.

The reasonableness of the wonder should be easily answered by the very reasonable response: even for the lowest risk group for getting COVID, the cumulative chances of getting COVID are high! The risk of negative outcomes from COVID for the lowest risk adults is still orders of magnitude lower than the risk of negative outcomes for receiving the vaccine. The benefit of the vaccine is still strong for the low risk individual and the community.

The fact that there may be large amounts of wonder remaining is all about the attention bias from distortions perpetuated by loud authoritative non-experts, social media, and inherent distrust (which you well discussed above) even of actual experts, and the various other biases I have mentioned plus more. Biases can lurk, or they can shine like a bunch of spotlights at tinsel town gala. You've even mentioned several in your posts... it seems odd that you find them well reasoned.

 

[NomadicMedic]

We talk about the phase 1 people, the people in this thread, being relatively well informed. It’s worth noting that those of us who take part in EMS forums and discuss evidence-based medicine are outliers. The barriers for entry to EMS are so low that we are flooded with ill-informed, poorly educated low information voters. These are the ones that are dangerous. Others believe them because they sport an EMT patch and are perceived as some type of “expert”. These are the ones that scare me.

 

[Summit]

The reasonableness of the wonder should be easily answered by the very reasonable response: even for the lowest risk group for getting COVID, the cumulative chances of getting COVID are high! The risk of negative outcomes from COVID for the lowest risk adults is still orders of magnitude lower than the risk of negative outcomes for receiving the vaccine. The benefit of the vaccine is still strong for the low risk individual and the community.

Gotta get better at proof reading. That should read:

The risk of negative outcomes from COVID for the lowest risk adults is still orders of magnitude HIGHER than the risk of negative outcomes for receiving the vaccine. The benefit of the vaccine is still strong for the low risk individual and the community.

 

[Jim37F]

Well it's been a little over a day since I got my first dose. No webbed feet or gills yet. I had a bit of a scratchy throat for a while. Biggest side effect was my being sore. Not major, like maybe a 1 or 2, just enough to be noticeable and slightly annoying. Most shots the arm soreness dissipated fairly quickly. My arm was sore all day, but waking up thats pretty much gone.

Don't feel anymore or less tired than normal, and my microchip tracker isn't allowing me to access any 5G network myself lol

 

[NomadicMedic]

For information.

 

[wtferick]

Update from my first dose on Monday.
Eating ham and watching TV.

 

[hpclayto]

Do what you want. Don’t preach at others for not doing what you think they should do.