COVID VACCINE - The Megathread

[RedBlanketRunner]

My dear friends,
A vote of "no"
is a vote for death.

Or a vote for heading for a cave and being seriously antisocial and paranoid until the allergy tests come back.

 

[PotatoMedic]

And for the record, CR and myself worked very hard on that Chipotle analogy, and I think it is still relevant this morning...even in the absence of CR.

It did make me hungry. So there is that victory at least.

 

[DesertMedic66]

Quick question. Did either of you get antibody titers for COVID?
If not, why not? If so, were they negative?

Girlfriend was never tested for COVID when she was sick back in March with none of the major Covid symptoms. Her hospital offered it back in November and was found to have the antibodies.

I got a positive PCR test when I was sick which was followed by a negative test 2 months later for me to return to work. I have not done any titers.

 

[ffemt8978]

My dear friend,
COVID does not discriminate
from skeptics and believers

Neither do mistakes or unknowns in the vaccine creation process. But you're free to continue believing that having a healthy dose of skepticism is the same as death, just as the skeptics are free to continue believing that blind acceptance of a new vaccine may not be the best idea at the moment.

 

[DrParasite]

Parasite....several articles say you are incorrect. I mean the precedents are already there for many health care employers and schools. It seems absolutely yes healthcare workers can be mandated and can be fired for refusing.

Can I Be Required to Get a Covid Vaccine?

www.bloomberg.com

Could COVID-19 vaccines become mandatory in the U.S.?

While there is legislative precedent for vaccine mandates, legal and public health expert Joanne Rosen says other strategies could help U.S. states achieve widespread vaccination for COVID-19

hub.jhu.edu

Can an employer mandate the COVID-19 vaccine?

Can the government or your employer make the COVID-19 vaccine compulsory?

www.today.com

Can COVID-19 vaccinations be mandated? Short answer: Yes

Employers could require their workers to get vaccinated against COVID-19 via both workplace policies and existing laws. Neither option, however, is simple or straightforward.

theconversation.com

These were all short and easy reads...

you know what? I stand corrected. I was not aware that there was prior caselaw behind mandatory vaccinations (Jacobson v. Massachusetts in 1905 for anyone interested)

It’s a different story for orders issued by states, cities or businesses, but even then, mandatory vaccination wouldn’t be forced vaccination.

“Nobody's talking about coming to your house, holding you down and vaccinating you,” Dorit Reiss, a law professor at the University of California Hastings College of the Law in San Francisco, told TODAY.

Refusing to follow a mandate could mean a fine, tax or other penalty, said Reiss, who studies legal and policy issues related to vaccines.

I can admit when I was wrong, and this was one of those situations. You can be fired for refusing a Covid vaccine. and fined. and banned from going into a store (although, admittedly, that will be difficult to enforce).

I still think it's a slippery slope, but if the government can make a case.....

 

[DrParasite]

And did you actually read any of that? Do you really know how to interpret it objectively? I didn't think so. Either does the vast majority of the population. People are left to trust the authorities, which a growing percentage of the population is finding harder and harder to do. It isn't as if health authorities have never been wrong, and prestigious medical journals have never hid the truth in order to forward an agenda. You can believe what you are told by those in charge if you want, and that's fine. If you are being completely honest though, you'll admit that your biases are where all of your confidence comes from, not from any actual analysis or understanding of the data. Some others see things differently, and admit that they don't know what it all means and choose not to blindly trust those who say "it's all good - just trust us". And their choice is no less rational than yours - perhaps it is more so.

I did not read the study, and am faaaar from qualified to interpret it objectively. I'm assuming you are though, as are a couple of people on this site who are smarter than me and faaaaaar more educated. I will gladly differ to your expertise on what you think of the study.

Will I differ to the "experts"? absolutely. IIRC you're a CRNA; so I'm going to trust you in managing what drugs I get during surgery. the vast majority wouldn't know anything about them. Are you saying you shouldn't be trusted, as an expert in your area, and competent to do your job? Why should this be any different?

Coronavirus has been heavily politicized from day one. Don't forget the massive screwups by CDC and FDA very early on, and the repeated mistakes, miscalculations, outright lies, and politically motivated manipulations from all levels of government since then. Don't forget that the spread and toll of this thing has been repeatedly blamed on the skeptics and never on those who purport to have the power to effect it's course (but somehow aren't able to), or on the nature of the virus itself. To think that none of that could possibly have had any influence on the vaccine and related recommendations is completely absurd.

No arguments there. I still say for the majority of the US, the virus isn't the doomsday pandemic that CNN is saying it is. Is it a virus? yes. does it suck and will you get sick? yep. will people die? as they always do, some people do die from pathogens. Are certain populations more susceptible? definitely. Has the left (and their media allies) been making it out to be the president's faults, to hurt him during his re-election attempt? absolutely. And there right wing idiots who think it's all a conspiracy? I'm sure.

Mistakes were made at all levels of government, as was manipulation of the public's opinion of the virus. And some politicians took advantage of the virus for their political gain (one even won an emmy and wrote a book about it).

But at the end of the day, we can't shut down forever. We need a solution, and that solution starts with a vaccine to prevent future infections. Especially for those high risk populations. Even if it's only 95% effective, that's still better than 0 in my opinion.

 

[PotatoMedic]

Also if you read the vaccine fact sheet for the EUA that is required to be given to all who receive the shot, it says that it is voluntary. Vaccines via an EUA cannot be manditory per the FDA.

On another note, it has been three hours and my arm still feels fine! And no webbed feet.

 

[DrParasite]

On another note, it has been three hours and my arm still feels fine! And no webbed feet.

what about webbed hands? can you stick to walls? any spider-sense? or increased strength?

 

[DesertMedic66]

what about webbed hands? can you stick to walls? any spider-sense? or increased strength?

What about the ability for echolocation? That could be very useful.

 

[akflightmedic]

Also if you read the vaccine fact sheet for the EUA that is required to be given to all who receive the shot, it says that it is voluntary. Vaccines via an EUA cannot be manditory per the FDA.

On another note, it has been three hours and my arm still feels fine! And no webbed feet.

This article with my limited legal awareness seems to indicate it could go either way, it just has not been really tried...yet.

Under an EUA, Can Businesses Require Employees and Customers to Get Vaccinated? - Bill of Health

Can private businesses mandate that employees and customers receive COVID-19 vaccines authorized for emergency use?

blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu

https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Interesting thought exercises though...

 

[wtferick]

If you as an individual are willing to accept Covid treatment with any of the experimental medications, then I have no clue why the same individuals would not get the vaccine. Blows my mind.
I’m getting mine tomorrow, all while a family member is admitted due to Covid. It hurts.

 

[MackTheKnife]

Not getting it. Not done my own research, but I've read some news articles where they mention 6 months efficacy. I also think back to SARS, MERS, H1N1 and no vaccines for them, as far as I remember, and they all passed away eventually. And perhaps so will COVID. My 2 cents.

 

[akflightmedic]

Well....there actually IS a vaccine for H1N1, I have had it, it is typically included in the flu vaccine.

As for SARs and MERs (both of which are coronaviruses), there has been extensive research and development done on these, however the virus was quickly stomped on and transmission was quite limited.

COVID 19 (in the SARs group) has already far exceeded both ease of transmission and death rate globally...not too many of us are messing with camels, nor are we in households with those who do, so throwing MERs in the discussion as being relevant, actually is not.

"There has been evidence of limited, but not sustained spread of MERS-CoV from person to person, both in households as well as in health care settings like hospitals.[12][28] Most transmission has occurred "in the circumstances of close contact with severely ill persons in healthcare or household settings" and there is no evidence of transmission from asymptomatic cases.[29] Cluster sizes have ranged from 1 to 26 people, with an average of 2.7" Wikipedia

 

[E tank]

If you as an individual are willing to accept Covid treatment with any of the experimental medications, then I have no clue why the same individuals would not get the vaccine. Blows my mind.
I’m getting mine tomorrow, all while a family member is admitted due to Covid. It hurts.

Which 'experimental' medications are being used on humans for the first time?

 

[PotatoMedic]

They only have duration for effectiveness for about 3 months as they are not evaluating the people from phase 1 trials for long term effectiveness. (Least from what I have read and understand). And the reason it is only 3 months is because that is how long it has been since the phase 3 trial has been going.

 

[PotatoMedic]

This article with my limited legal awareness seems to indicate it could go either way, it just has not been really tried...yet.

Under an EUA, Can Businesses Require Employees and Customers to Get Vaccinated? - Bill of Health

Can private businesses mandate that employees and customers receive COVID-19 vaccines authorized for emergency use?

blog.petrieflom.law.harvard.edu

https://www.fda.gov/media/142749/download

Interesting thought exercises though...

I'm glad you found that! I've been looking for something like that for a while. I think employers would have a hard time, in this specific case, mandating the vaccine when masks have shown to be effective alternatives to a vaccine. (As section III talks about). But I'm no lawyer so what do I know.

 

[wtferick]

Which 'experimental' medications are being used on humans for the first time?

mRNA isn’t being used for the first time either.

 

[Fezman92]

We’re getting ours until next month.

 

[Carlos Danger]

For the record, I am voluntarily getting the first dose tomorrow. I have never said that I don't think it's safe or that folks shouldn't get it or that any of the wild conspiracy theories are true.

My whole point is that it is entirely rational to be skeptical of both the fed and state governments and the pharma industry, and it is entirely rational to decide that you'd rather not get a vaccine that has no track record at all (good or bad) when the illness that the vaccine protects against has well below a 1% chance (for anyone not in a high-risk group) of ever making you seriously ill. You can disagree with that reasoning all you want, but on an individual level it is perfectly sound. It doesn't make someone a science denier to disagree with you, or even to disagree with authorities. The authorities have been wrong many times.

As I said before, most individual's viewpoint on this issue (as well as on many others) is influenced much more by their biases than by science. Unless you are a trained scientist or clinical statistician and you yourself have carefully studied and analyzed all the data, you can't say that you "know" something is true because you are "pro-science". No, you are simply accepting what you are told by the authorities and assuming that what they tell you is true. Your opinion is no more educated or rational than anyone else's.

 

[Carlos Danger]

So if they do not agree with NO regulation, they only disagree if regulation should be by the Feds....then who else is there? Which "independent" regulatory body would ultimately have everyone's best interests in mind? Just curious...if not the Fed Govt, then who? Careful, you may find yourself falling into the rabbit hole of conspiracies.

There are many examples of very successful and credible independent, non-governmental accrediting agencies in various fields, as well as many examples of when governmental agencies which supposedly "have everyone's bests interest's in mind" (lol) failed miserably and in some cases repeatedly, because they face essentially no consequences, unlike a private entity..

Yes, professional credibility. As any product of theirs would be considered non-trustworthy going forward if they put out a vaccine that was absolute shyte. Did I really need to explain this to you?

So every time a pharm corporation has ever launched an unsuccessful product they went out of business shortly thereafter because no one would ever again buy their other products - even the ones that had already been profitably on the market long before the failure - simply because they lacked credibility? Investors never fund the development of products that promise returns just because not everything the company brought to market in the past worked out? Aren't there something like 13 different companies seeking approval for essentially the same COVID vaccine? Are you saying that we will completely lose a huge chunk of our pharm industry because all of those companies will have to shut down if time proves that the efficacy is not what we really need it to be or some long-term negative effects are found that dissuade people from taking the vaccine?

You do realize that even Purdue Pharma still made billions in profits even as they were demonized in the media and dogged by massive lawsuits? That they just recently filed for bankruptcy not because no one was buying their products because they "lacked credibility", but because of the sheer weight of the record settlements against them? And that even in the face of that, it isn't clear that the company will need to actually dissolve? How does that work, if what you are claiming is true?

Yes, you do need to explain this to me.