COVID VACCINE - The Megathread

Would you get the Pfizer vaccine if it were available to you?


  • Total voters
    72

DrParasite

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My guess is that the vast majority of people who get vaccinated do so to protect themselves, not others.
Without getting into any of the other discussions, the reason I got vaccinated (and last week got the booster too) was strictly for selfish reasons. I did it so when (not if, when) I catch covid, it won't suck as much, and I won't have to go through what the unvaccinated went through when they got sick. My desire to get the shot had 0 to do with anyone else. To be perfectly honest, what risks others face had little to no impact on my decision to get vaccinated.
“I just don't see a successful argument that every individual has an ethical obligation to become vaccinated when others have access to relatively easy and convenient and very effective ways of protecting themselves”

Except that if everyone thought that, no one would do it.
If you want to get vaccinated, get vaccinated. If you don't, don't. It's not my responsibility to get vaccinated to protect YOU. if you want to be protected, get vaccinated. if you can't, well, wear an n95 24/7, and never leave your house and prevent infections. We all need to make scarifies to ensure our own health, and you need to make the decision on what you are going to do. I have 0 ethical obligation to do anything to do protect you; that obligation falls to you and you alone.

Taking it to the extreme: if covid wiped out all of the unvaccinated (it won't, but lets pretend), then I guess there would be no further risk to you right? That's their call, and their right to make stupid decisions about their health.
 

mgr22

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Not everyone in our society is equally able to protect themselves from harm. Immunity varies among people with or without vaccines; so does strength, intelligence, general health, opportunities, wealth, etc. We have a history in this country of sharing resources to smooth out some of those differences. I see that as a plus, not a minus.

I get the part about self-determination, but I wouldn't want to live or work with people who gave zero f***s about the welfare of others.
 

DrParasite

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I get the part about self-determination, but I wouldn't want to live or work with people who gave zero f***s about the welfare of others.
You are misunderstanding what I am saying: I do care about the welfare of others, which is why I encourage them to get vaccinated. Get vaccinated, they are pretty much free, and it allows you to protect yourself. Some places are even bribing people to get vaccinated. Share the resources, anyone who wants a vaccine should get it. I will also admit (again) that I got the vaccine out of selfishness, because I wanted to protect myself, and I think everyone should get the vaccine to protect themselves (again, looking out for #1) from the outside world that can put them into a world of hurt.

There is a saying: the lord helps those who help themselves. Without deviating into the religious aspects, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. What more do you want? Personal responsibility is often a lost concept in todays age, but it can't be ignored, and people should realize that their actions (or lack there of) have consequences.
Immunity varies among people with or without vaccines; so does strength, intelligence, general health, opportunities, wealth, etc. We have a history in this country of sharing resources to smooth out some of those differences. I see that as a plus, not a minus.
If you don't want to get the shot, for whatever reason, I'm cool with that, because that's your decision. But don't tell me that I need to get a shot, or wear a mask 24/7, or stop living my life, going out, seeing family, because of your decision. If you have low strength, low intelligence, low health, low opportunities, low wealth, or anything else you can think of, than you need to take adequate precautions to protect yourself against COVID and any other pathogen out there (even though the shot is free, and available nationwide to almost anyone who wants it).

If you choose not to protect yourself, well, that's a decision you are making, and you need to deal with the consequences. And I have little sympathy for you, especially if the consequences were preventable (that might be the 0 f***s you were referring to). It's not up to the rest of the world to change because of your own decisions. But the healthcare world should still treat you just the same, just like they would for any illness or injury you sustained.
 

Tigger

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You are misunderstanding what I am saying: I do care about the welfare of others, which is why I encourage them to get vaccinated. Get vaccinated, they are pretty much free, and it allows you to protect yourself. Some places are even bribing people to get vaccinated. Share the resources, anyone who wants a vaccine should get it. I will also admit (again) that I got the vaccine out of selfishness, because I wanted to protect myself, and I think everyone should get the vaccine to protect themselves (again, looking out for #1) from the outside world that can put them into a world of hurt.

There is a saying: the lord helps those who help themselves. Without deviating into the religious aspects, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. What more do you want? Personal responsibility is often a lost concept in todays age, but it can't be ignored, and people should realize that their actions (or lack there of) have consequences.

If you don't want to get the shot, for whatever reason, I'm cool with that, because that's your decision. But don't tell me that I need to get a shot, or wear a mask 24/7, or stop living my life, going out, seeing family, because of your decision. If you have low strength, low intelligence, low health, low opportunities, low wealth, or anything else you can think of, than you need to take adequate precautions to protect yourself against COVID and any other pathogen out there (even though the shot is free, and available nationwide to almost anyone who wants it).

If you choose not to protect yourself, well, that's a decision you are making, and you need to deal with the consequences. And I have little sympathy for you, especially if the consequences were preventable (that might be the 0 f***s you were referring to). It's not up to the rest of the world to change because of your own decisions. But the healthcare world should still treat you just the same, just like they would for any illness or injury you sustained.
Failing to get vaccinated does have healthcare consequences for the vaccinated that they cannot control. If you are unvaccinated and end up in the hospital, your stay is statistically preventable. You are using resources that ostensibly were not needed, and could have been easily redirected to someone in need of non-COVID care. And sure, we could argue that if your diet sucks and you end up needing cardiac care that this was preventable too. But one comes in the form of a free shot and is a response to what has been a mostly unprecedented event. It's low hanging fruit.
 

ffemt8978

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One correction...the vaccine is NOT free. It is paid for by tax dollars rather than having to pay on site. Make no mistake, the pharma companies would not have even thought about making a vaccine unless they knew they were going to be paid for it.
 

DrParasite

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Failing to get vaccinated does have healthcare consequences for the vaccinated that they cannot control. If you are unvaccinated and end up in the hospital, your stay is statistically preventable. You are using resources that ostensibly were not needed, and could have been easily redirected to someone in need of non-COVID care.
fair argument. and valid, but there goes that slippery slope
And sure, we could argue that if your diet sucks and you end up needing cardiac care that this was preventable too.
Agreed. and if you drive drunk and crash, that's preventable, yet I don't see any government mandates for breathalizers in every car. or banning fast food (that wouldn't cost the government a penny).

or abolishing cigarettes. if you smoke, and end up with a respiratory ailment, many that will end up requiring hospital admission, you are "using resources that ostensibly were not needed, and could have been easily redirected to someone in need of [non-smoking related] care. Your stay is "statistically preventable."

And we won't even go into those who end up hospitalized due to addition related issues, because the vast majority of those are preventable (no one forced you to take the first drug; I'll stipulate that after you are addicted, it's beyond your control). don't forget, drugs wreck havok on your body, and require lots of resources, esp if you end up intubated.

See how that slippery slope of "preventable issues" can start to look really bad?
But one comes in the form of a free shot and is a response to what has been a mostly unprecedented event. It's low hanging fruit.
So get the shot. keep yourself out of the hospital. stop worrying about what I do, and protect yourself. if I get up in the hospital, that's my issue, not yours, and the healthcare system should treat me, as they treat every other "preventable" ailment. If I take up resources that you need (for some non-covid related issue), that sucks; but we have a finite amount of resources in the hospital, and resources were limited pre-covid.
 

MonkeyArrow

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So get the shot. keep yourself out of the hospital. stop worrying about what I do, and protect yourself. if I get up in the hospital, that's my issue, not yours, and the healthcare system should treat me, as they treat every other "preventable" ailment. If I take up resources that you need (for some non-covid related issue), that sucks; but we have a finite amount of resources in the hospital, and resources were limited pre-covid.
So this is something I’ve been musing about for a long time. If you take this line of reasoning, why shouldn’t I as an EM physician/intensivist/nurse/paramedic be able to choose not to treat you? If you end up in the hospital, as you state, it’s not only your problem but it’s also mine now. So you choose to not get the vaccine, and I choose not to treat you. Everyone makes their own choices as individuals; me choosing not to treat you (the hypothetical you, a person who is not vaccinated, not DrParasite specifically) is my own free will to use my medical education and training in whatever way I see fit.

I know someone is going to come along and say ‘well CMS rules require anyone accepting federal funds through medicare to not deny care’. Ok, in this hypothetical, I band together with a 1000 of my closest medical friends to work at a private hospital that doesn’t accept Medicare/aid patients.

But what about the investment the federal government has made in you by supporting your medical school with federally backed loans and subsidizing your residency training? Well, there’s already no expectation of being indebted to any kind of service for that. People leave medicine immediately after finishing training to go into industry or start a family, and you don’t see an outcry to stop that from happening.
 

ffemt8978

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So this is something I’ve been musing about for a long time. If you take this line of reasoning, why shouldn’t I as an EM physician/intensivist/nurse/paramedic be able to choose not to treat you? If you end up in the hospital, as you state, it’s not only your problem but it’s also mine now. So you choose to not get the vaccine, and I choose not to treat you. Everyone makes their own choices as individuals; me choosing not to treat you (the hypothetical you, a person who is not vaccinated, not DrParasite specifically) is my own free will to use my medical education and training in whatever way I see fit.

Wouldn't that fall under the auspices of you agreed to those conditions in exchange for being allowed to perform medical procedures? You knew what the expectations were before entering the field, unlike being mandated to get a new vaccine midway through your life.
I know someone is going to come along and say ‘well CMS rules require anyone accepting federal funds through medicare to not deny care’. Ok, in this hypothetical, I band together with a 1000 of my closest medical friends to work at a private hospital that doesn’t accept Medicare/aid patients.

Until the government comes along and says that any employer with more than 100 employess must treat anyone who shows up because we're in a global pandemic that requires emergency measures implemented by an unelected government agency.
But what about the investment the federal government has made in you by supporting your medical school with federally backed loans and subsidizing your residency training? Well, there’s already no expectation of being indebted to any kind of service for that. People leave medicine immediately after finishing training to go into industry or start a family, and you don’t see an outcry to stop that from happening.
Let's not even get into the whole student loan forgiveness issue in this thread please.
 

DrParasite

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So this is something I’ve been musing about for a long time. If you take this line of reasoning, why shouldn’t I as an EM physician/intensivist/nurse/paramedic be able to choose not to treat you? If you end up in the hospital, as you state, it’s not only your problem but it’s also mine now. So you choose to not get the vaccine, and I choose not to treat you. Everyone makes their own choices as individuals; me choosing not to treat you (the hypothetical you, a person who is not vaccinated, not DrParasite specifically) is my own free will to use my medical education and training in whatever way I see fit.
Honest answer? you don't have to treat me. Seriously. You can take off your whitecoat, remove your ID, and walk out the door. No one is gonna force you to do anything; you can always quit. If I'm on the ambulance, dispatched to a diff breather, and when I pull up, the patient says they aren't vaccinated, should I be able to chose not to treat them? should my employer be forced to keep me employed, even though I am refusing to do my job?

One of the requirements of your JOB is to treat patients, whether you agree with their views or not. Are you able to refuse to treat liberals? Can you refuse to treat conservatives? Why shouldn't you choose to treat a gang member or criminal who gets shot while committing a crime? If you are a Black doctor, and I'm a tattooed White supremacist (both are hypothetical, and not real), should you be able to refuse treatment of my medical conditions? If I die because you won't treat me, should my family be able to sue you for negligence?

We are supposed to treat everyone equally, regardless of what they did prior to calling us for help.
I know someone is going to come along and say ‘well CMS rules require anyone accepting federal funds through medicare to not deny care’. Ok, in this hypothetical, I band together with a 1000 of my closest medical friends to work at a private hospital that doesn’t accept Medicare/aid patients.
I mean, I guess... Do you have an emergency room? do private hospital ER routinely refuse to treat people if they don't have insurance during life threatening instances? If you are in private practice, you can chose who your patients are, so if you want to only accept patients who are vaccinated, you can. If it's a private hospital, who can selectively chose who they want to treat (maybe they only want to treat rich White patients, idk), that's their prerogative... I guess? I mean, it's not different than only treating those who are vaccinated.

or what happens if you have a non-vaxxed person, who gets into an MVA... are you going to refuse to treat them, even though the condition they present with has nothing to do with COVID? or if the unvaxxed person was shot in a drive by shooting... are you doing to let them die from gross hemorrhage because they don't have an up to date vax card?

I won't speak for you, but I am going to put my personal feelings aside, and do what I can to help the person in need... if you won't, than I think that says a lot more about you.
 

ffemt8978

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I'm stocking up on popcorn for when "think of the children" gets brought up by Child Protective Services in a "if you're not vaccinated you can't visit your kids" mandate.






I sincerely hope this never happens, but I can see it being a waypoint on the slippery slope we seem to be cannonballing down.
 

DrParasite

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I sincerely hope this never happens, but I can see it being a waypoint on the slippery slope we seem to be cannonballing down.
you mean like this?

thankfully it was reversed

but what about this?
or this
 

MonkeyArrow

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Wouldn't that fall under the auspices of you agreed to those conditions in exchange for being allowed to perform medical procedures? You knew what the expectations were before entering the field, unlike being mandated to get a new vaccine midway through your life.
Is treating everyone a condition of retaining privileges to practice? Yes. Did anyone who trained before March of 2020 know that these were the expectations before entering the field? I would argue no. In fact, its funny that you mention being mandated to get a vaccine halfway through life, as I say that Covid is like being forced to radically change your job description in the middle of your career.
Until the government comes along and says that any employer with more than 100 employess must treat anyone who shows up because we're in a global pandemic that requires emergency measures implemented by an unelected government agency.
That would only fly if they could also mandate that any employer with more than 100 employees mandate the vaccine. You seem against that mandate, so why are you pro a treatment mandate?
One of the requirements of your JOB is to treat patients, whether you agree with their views or not. Are you able to refuse to treat liberals? Can you refuse to treat conservatives? Why shouldn't you choose to treat a gang member or criminal who gets shot while committing a crime? If you are a Black doctor, and I'm a tattooed White supremacist (both are hypothetical, and not real), should you be able to refuse treatment of my medical conditions? If I die because you won't treat me, should my family be able to sue you for negligence?
That's at the heart of my question. It's not a practical or legal question, but a moral or ideological one. It is my personal opinion that there is no good reason to discriminate between black/white, or liberal/conservative. Would you treat a gang member or criminal or who got shot while there is still active gunfire on scene? Or treat a patient who is punching and kicking and biting you in the back of an ambulance? There is little precedent that establishes a medical provider putting their safety on the line to treat others. Isn't someone who is unvaccinated, despite ample accessibility to vaccines, literature on their efficacy, and public promotion, putting my health and safety on the line by placing me at increased risk of contracting illness? I think it is natural to not want to help people who actively choose to make your life miserable.
or what happens if you have a non-vaxxed person, who gets into an MVA... are you going to refuse to treat them, even though the condition they present with has nothing to do with COVID? or if the unvaxxed person was shot in a drive by shooting... are you doing to let them die from gross hemorrhage because they don't have an up to date vax card?
These are strawmen.
I won't speak for you, but I am going to put my personal feelings aside, and do what I can to help the person in need... if you won't, than I think that says a lot more about you.
I have for the past however many months and will continue to do so. I actually don't ask my patients' vaccination status; it isn't relevant to the care I deliver. (Personally, to be quite honest, I actually like taking care of the non-vaccinated more in a roundabout way; they're usually sicker, and require more extensive resuscitation and stabilization. I've come to the conclusion for a little while now that the Covid and the ongoing pandemic has made me a better clinician and researcher. The acuity and pathology I've seen caused by Covid in multi-organ system failure dwarfs what I had seen previously. Hell, I could probably count on one hand the number of times I'd seen (non-OD related) pure type I respiratory failure requiring intubation prior to Covid.)
 

ffemt8978

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@MonkeyArrow I am against the way the mandate was implemented, not necessarily against the mandate itself.
 
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ffemt8978

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Interesting to see federal judge say there is no Covid 19 exemption to the First Amendment when it comes to religious exemptions for military personnel getting vaccinated.

"The COVID-19 pandemic provides the government no license to abrogate those freedoms. There is no COVID-19 exception to the First Amendment. There is no military exclusion from our Constitution."
 

DrParasite

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Is treating everyone a condition of retaining privileges to practice? Yes. Did anyone who trained before March of 2020 know that these were the expectations before entering the field? I would argue no. In fact, its funny that you mention being mandated to get a vaccine halfway through life, as I say that Covid is like being forced to radically change your job description in the middle of your career.
that's a strawman claim if I ever heard one... but, assuming it's correct (and that's a big assumption), do your job as it's expected of you, or change careers. No one is forcing you to stay. Or go into private practice.
That's at the heart of my question. It's not a practical or legal question, but a moral or ideological one. It is my personal opinion that there is no good reason to discriminate between black/white, or liberal/conservative.
but there is a good reason to discriminate between vaccinated and unvaccinated?
Would you treat a gang member or criminal or who got shot while there is still active gunfire on scene? Or treat a patient who is punching and kicking and biting you in the back of an ambulance?
1) you (the medical provider) should wait for a scene to be secured before treating the GSW victim
2) if I'm on the scene of a shooting, and I hear gunfire, there is a very high probability I am leaving the scene. likely with the GSW victims in my ambulance.
3) the "patient" who is punching and kicking me is not a patient. there is a clear line between a patient and an attacker. But don't take my word for it, listen to an expert:
3a) if the "patient" is attacking me due to a fixable medical condition, fine, but in that case, I am calling for additional resources to restrain the patient, and once it's safer for me to do my job, I will resume treatment.

There is little precedent that establishes a medical provider putting their safety on the line to treat others. Isn't someone who is unvaccinated, despite ample accessibility to vaccines, literature on their efficacy, and public promotion, putting my health and safety on the line by placing me at increased risk of contracting illness? I think it is natural to not want to help people who actively choose to make your life miserable.
I'm throwing the BS flag on this entire statement, because It's factually inaccurate in multiple ways

1) our job is risky. medical providers have caught diseases from patients (this example comes out of NYC). medical providers have been killed at MVAs. as well as been shot, on medical calls.
2) No, for several reasons. The first reason is the vaccinated can still catch and spread covid. that's not my opinion, that's a documented fact. Secondly, do you remember back in EMT class where we were taught to treat everyone as infectious? which was why we wear gloves for every patient? So if someone has HIV/AIDS, that isn't a reason not to treat them, because you should treat everyone as infectious, and protect yourself appropriately? Furthermore, if you want to protect yourself from those who "actively choose to make your life miserable," I'm not stopping you. Wear an n95 your entire shift, as well as safety glasses. wash your hands, and wear gloves. Take the precaution you deem appropriate. However, their personal decisions doesn't mean you can use it as an excuse not to do your job, regardless of what your thoughts are about said decisions.
These are strawmen.
no; you said
why shouldn’t I as an EM physician/intensivist/nurse/paramedic be able to choose not to treat you? If you end up in the hospital, as you state, it’s not only your problem but it’s also mine now. So you choose to not get the vaccine, and I choose not to treat you. Everyone makes their own choices as individuals; me choosing not to treat you (the hypothetical you, a person who is not vaccinated, not DrParasite specifically) is my own free will to use my medical education and training in whatever way I see fit.
That was your line in the sand. I provided examples. the "real subject" was you choose not to treat those who were unvaccinated. Now, if you want to clarify that you won't treat covid+ patients who are unvaxxed, that might make it a strawman, but that wasn't what you said, and the EM treats all type of issues (and with the omicron variant being prevalent, it's likely your GSW vic will test covid+).
 

DrParasite

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Interesting to see federal judge say there is no Covid 19 exemption to the First Amendment when it comes to religious exemptions for military personnel getting vaccinated.
The military is a little different, because once you join the military, you give up some rights, and become property of the military, and they do do whatever they want to you. Deploy you, order you to do something that will get you killed, inject you with who knows what, order you to cut your hair/beard, etc, and discipline you if you refuse. Plus, you willingly joined the army knowing this, and they don't let you leave unless it's on their terms.

I don't agree with the was the military does things, but it's not like this is all without precedent.
 

ffemt8978

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The military is a little different, because once you join the military, you give up some rights, and become property of the military, and they do do whatever they want to you. Deploy you, order you to do something that will get you killed, inject you with who knows what, order you to cut your hair/beard, etc, and discipline you if you refuse. Plus, you willingly joined the army knowing this, and they don't let you leave unless it's on their terms.

I don't agree with the was the military does things, but it's not like this is all without precedent.
That's what makes this decision interesting. The military by necessity must be able to maintain discipline and effectiveness, and in order to do so it's members must give up some rights and get restrictions on others.
 

MackTheKnife

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Weird...getting a toxic vibe...not looking to trade hostile jabs. If it's too intense, just tap out. Its cool.

What is clear to me in this conversation (not just on this forum but everywhere) is that it has been reduced to an ideological one where folks take it personally when they are challenged on an element they consider to be dogma. I'm not saying your god doesn't exist...I am challenging the narrative that covid vaccines and the covid virus are in anyway nearly in the same category as other pathogens and their legitimately mandated vaccines. Studies are coming fast and furious and are almost as valuable in demonstrating bias confirmation error as guiding public health policy.

Just to be clear...do I think adults should be vaccinated? Of course I do. It clearly reduces severity of disease in most people. I think that there are high risk groups and specific occupational exposure risk groups that are looking for trouble if they don't get vaccinated. I, like you, have witnessed their deaths first hand.

Vaccinated people get covid. Boosted vaccinated people get covid. People that get covid, that have been vaccinated get covid again in less than one year. Now a fourth shot is being advocated for some groups. Name another pathogen/vaccine that has that distinction. A vaccination by the commonly accepted definition produces immunity. What do you call a shot that reduces the severity of symptoms?

Do I think it should be mandatory? No. For anyone, much less children. There are well intentioned bureaucrats that, in their earnestness to contain the disease, run their mouths with the rationale that even though what they're saying has no reliable evidence behind it, in an over abundance of caution, it won't hurt people to hear. Should I have insinuated that they're lying? You got me. No. At least not all of them.

But that is an undeniable and demonstrable phenomenon in this epidemic and it only serves to fuel dismissive attitudes once the statements are proven to be inaccurate. Claims about the effectiveness of the vaccine early on are just one example.

I have healthy family members that have not been vaccinated and have not (as far as they know) been infected. Were they to be infected, they are extremely unlikely to require hospitalization let alone ICU admission as they are very fit with zero co-morbidities. They continue to mask and distance when appropriate.

To your charge that I would not express these sentiments in a public forum at my hospital, you're unfortunately absolutely correct about that for the reasons I've stated above. This has become a pseudo-religious conversation and to suggest even in some isolated, extraordinary setting that it might be ok to not question the decision of some folks not to be vaccinated or that their medical insurance should be as good as anyone else's, is to risk being burned at the stake professionally. So, again, you got me. I feel safe here. Sue me.

Peace.

ps...thanks for saying I'm smart (albeit illogical)!
Great post/reply, especially your point about whether or not the vaccine is truly a vaccine if multiple boosters are required.
 

Carlos Danger

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You cannot identify the situations as apples vs snickers bars but then say the Polio situation is worth considering for relevant skepticism for today. Vaccine skepticism has always been present going back to Jenner! Modes of transmission and prevalence, case doubling times... I'll just leave with peak annual incidence of paralytic polio myelitis was "only" 20K. Flu kills more than Polio paralyzed at its peak! 6.7 million COVID hospitalizations in the USA. So, the level of skepticism should be scaled to the threat.
Not sure what you are even talking about here. I didn't bring up polio or make the comparison. In fact, I indicated that it probably wasn't a good comparison. The whole point was that vaccine skepticism isn't a new phenomenon.
The problem is that simply saying "3/4" or "most" might feel good, but epidemiology tells us what is "enough."
Again, putting words in my mouth and missing (or more likely, ignoring) my point. I said nothing about "feeling good" that we have a 75% vaccination rate, or about it being "enough". The discussion wasn't about herd immunity. I was disputing the general notion that Americans as a whole are largely resistant to vaccination. In many or most parts of the country the vaccines didn't become widely available to the general public until the early summer of 2021. That was only 7 or 8 months ago. Yet here we are with the large majority of the country already voluntarily vaccinated. That wouldn't be the case if Americans as a whole were as willfully negligent about this whole thing as we keep being portrayed.
Oh it is a pandemic virus in the age of globalization that is the genesis of the problems difficulty. Solutions, imperfect, and are hard and based on evolving information. However, the fight is made all the harder when well crafted disinformation campaigns originating from various malactors: enemy states, the power hungry, and the ignorant combine in to a maelstrom that raises the confusion of even intelligent non-experts.
We were told very early on that the Wuhan Coronavirus was likely to quickly become a widespread epidemic in many parts of the world, if not the persistent global pandemic that it has. Admittedly, I and other skeptical types dismissed this is just another Chicken Little moment. Some experts came right out and said that it was probably inevitable that every human would be exposed to it at some point. Then the official messaging quickly took on a less desperate and resigned yet appropriately serious tone when they rolled out the campaign to "flatten the curve". Not necessarily to try to stop the spread, but to slow the spread enough that we could figure out ways to protect the most vulnerable and keep the healthcare system from being totally overwhelmed. Now, almost two years later, we are being told the opposite: It is still spreading not because that is the nature of a highly contagious virus that was rapidly scattered across the entire planet, but because of the actions of bad actors and because we citizens just don't do what we are told. This is exactly the type of messaging that makes folks not want to listen to another word that you have to say, especially when it is delivered with the condescension that it often is.

Casting public health have indeed acted with the best information available, but are then unfairly cast as incompetent and dishonest for it, despite also having more successes and many of their failures are failures in application due to groups of individuals acting "stupidly" driven by disinformation and human nature. Have there been some examples of individual officials who were consistently incompetent and/or dishonest, hell yes. Have there been incompetent and dishonest actions that are not characteristic of the whole? YES.

Do you get to characterize all public health officials as inherently incompetent and dishonest? ABSOLUTELY NOT and it is irresponsible to do so.

We as health professionals should vigorously attack poor policies while vigorously supporting the good and sensible ones. Unfairly coloring all PH negative plays directly into the hands of the malactors. Be better than that.
For the last time, please stop putting words into my mouth. Never have I ever characterized "all public health officials as inherently incompetent and dishonest".

What I have done is point out that while there are multiple factors that contribute to the lack of cooperation shown by a sizeable chunk of the American public. the bulk of the blame lies squarely on the shoulders of American public officials and politicians. The real problem has never been Russian bots or far-right conspiracy theorists on social media or Joe Rogan taking ivermectin or the fact that people are predominantly just dumb and stubborn. The real problem is that so many people just do_not_trust government officials and the mass media. From the early failures of WHO, CDC, and the FDA, to the hypersonic politicization of the issue by elected officials and bureaucrats on both sides of the aisle, to the apparent enthusiasm with which some governors and mayors enacted draconian and nonsensical emergency orders banning people from uncrowded outdoor spaces like parks and beaches, to the high-profile politicians caught breaking their own orders, to the many public school teacher's unions clear attempts to take advantage of the situation for their own gain, to the verifiable mistruths told the public by Fauci and others, to the constant condescension and finger wagging and "the science is settled - just do what you are told!!" messages from so many politicians, celebrities, and columnists, to the generally lousy messaging and seemingly contradictory guidelines and rules that have existed all along, the officials have given the public plenty of reason to just not believe what they are being told.

Like it or not, a noble lie is still a lie, people don't like being insulted and talked down to, and people often won't do things they don't understand or see the necessity of just because they are told to. It almost seems too late now, but maybe next time we should try a little less berating and politicization and little less blaming of "disinformation campaigns" and instead try a little more honesty, openness, explaining, and overall better messaging.
 
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Tigger

Dodges Pucks
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One correction...the vaccine is NOT free. It is paid for by tax dollars rather than having to pay on site. Make no mistake, the pharma companies would not have even thought about making a vaccine unless they knew they were going to be paid for it.
Paid for with tax dollars, like a litany of other healthcare costs in this country. Also, innovation costs money so can't say I blame them for wanting to be paid.
 
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