ALS Sleepover

[TransportJockey]

I'm wondering if some of you are confusing a night 12 hour shift with a full 24 hour rotation. Personally I hated being with fire on 24s for my first internship. Now that I'm on the 1945-0745 shift with a private company, I'm back to loving it

 

[medic417]

That's wonderful and the answer would still be NO. Got time to Earn Money while Sleeping? Good, wake up and clean your own ****... I'm there to learn, not clean floors or wash trucks. That fratboy hazing crap is for the birds, and I won't put up with it. No station Capt or crew should ever expect it, or think badly of any student who doesn't acquiesce to it. Put me on the payroll, and that's another story. Don't want to hire me because I won't polish your station... oh well.

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We are not talking hazing we are talking being part of the team. In fact on the grade sheet the preceptor uses it asks if you participated with the team. So you being rude and refusing means you failed clinicals thus failed the class.

 

[Ridryder911]

That's wonderful and the answer would still be NO. Got time to Earn Money while Sleeping? Good, wake up and clean your own ****... I'm there to learn, not clean floors or wash trucks. That fratboy hazing crap is for the birds, and I won't put up with it. No station Capt or crew should ever expect it, or think badly of any student who doesn't acquiesce to it. Put me on the payroll, and that's another story. Don't want to hire me because I won't polish your station... oh well.





Funny you should ask that... because I've asked quite a few firefighters over the past several weeks the same question. Their answer is the same as mine... never.

I digress... I need to check my stocks, as I think the price of tea in China has fallen.

I wish you luck, because I believe you will need it. I don't work for fire service but you are there as in the same role as your preceptor. You think your too good to do the job?

Slacking off on clinicals is a good way to judge the work habits of potential employee. You slack off and have an "attitude" I can guarantee you that you can kiss your career aspects good bye. There are many out there that will and can do the job without the attitude.

Remember, the time to shine is when you are on clinicals. If it is part of the job and the crew is performing it, chances are the student should too. Many of the recommendations for employment occur while students are on clinicals. Nothing like being black balled before entering the workforce.

R/r 911

 

[alphatrauma]

Do you not have base duties where you work? At my service we are responsible for cleaning the truck at the end of each shift, weekly deep clean, keeping the crew room and garage clean, keeping our equipment stocked, etc. This is part of the job and having professional pride.

I do have duties at my place of employment... and I get PAID to do them. We do not ask students/interns who come through for clinicals to clean or take the trash out, or look at them as potentially not worthy of hiring if they don't offer. That's B.S. on so many different levels.


Ultimately

I think the whole ALS Sleepover is much to do about nothing. so a student has an overnight/24hr field rotation and could "potentially" be sleeping during some of it. Does that mean the student gets nothing accomplished or is any less capable than someone who sits awake for 12hrs and gets no calls? How do we know that the student wasn't running 18 of those 24hrs and got no sleep? There are too many variables involved to conclusively come up with any concrete/definitive answer.

 

[VentMedic]

Funny you should ask that... because I've asked quite a few firefighters over the past several weeks the same question. Their answer is the same as mine... never.

Is this a volunteer thing?

There are situations where FFs do go into buildings to rescue people. A couple of recent nursing home fires have been examples of that. I also just watched the news and saw where FFs were able to get a handicapped person out of his burning apartment. If FFs are properly equiped, they will see that everyone is out of a building if it is at all possible. Those that know their job will not just stand on the curb watching the pretty flames.

When I was a FF, that was one of the things our training prepared us and like it or not, sometimes one had to enter a burning building to get someone out.

 

[alphatrauma]

I wish you luck

Thanks, but I don't believe in luck.

Slacking off on clinicals is a good way to judge the work habits of potential employee. You slack off and have an "attitude" I can guarantee you that you can kiss your career aspects good bye. There are many out there that will and can do the job without the attitude.

I agree wholeheartedly... good thing I don't "slack off" during clinical/field, and have stellar comments/letters/phone calls from my preceptors and attending physicians. All just by providing good quality patient care, with a healthy dose of professionalism and courtesy... imagine that

 

[WolfmanHarris]

I agree wholeheartedly... good thing I don't "slack off" during clinical/field, and have stellar comments/letters/phone calls from my preceptors and attending physicians. All just by providing good quality patient care, with a healthy dose of professionalism and courtesy... imagine that

I'm not seeing professionalism or courtesy in the way you're treating you colleagues here. I'm seeing a chip on your shoulder with a source that isn't quite clear.

 

[ResTech]

Alphatrauma... I see a lot of ur points and share some of the same sentiments... I agree as a student... we are there solely for the clinical aspect and that is it. We are not there to be janitors or car ash attendants. At the station I do field time, all we are expected to do is help with the unit check in the AM that we are going to be riding.

Given that I want a job at this station when I graduate, I would have no problem helping out with washing the units and other operational stuff like that.

 

[Shishkabob]

When I did my one and only 24-FD clinical, I worked the whole day, asking for new chores to do, and studying. I wasn't ever told to do anything at the primary station, as I took initiative. 3 calls the whole day, all from 6-9pm... abnormal for that station who averages 10+

After a while the chief told me to sleep... so I slept.

If your preceptor says you can take some time off from studying or take a nap on a long 24hr shift, when you had class the night before, and class 2 hours after you get off the next morning, I don't see a big deal. In the end, the call is theirs as a preceptor.


Because I helped, instead of studied the whole day, the preceptor actually went to my school the next day and spoke to my instructor at what I did, and how most other students don't do that. I wasn't required to work, and most students don't, but if I'm going to be there all day I might as well do something to pass the time.

 

[46Young]

My medic school allowed field rotations for tour 2/3 only(tour one is overnight, 1800-0600, 2300-0700, etc). You can double up and work two 8's if you like, or one 12. Tour ones are forbidden. CCEMS and Fairfax are the same for students. CCEMS was 0700-1900, Fx is 0700-1500, or so. Overnights generally have reduced call volume, unless you're working the ghetto. Some agencies may reduce units at night, though. All three schools had minimum hours required, as well as a minimum # of pt contact, skills, etc. Doing two 12's should be more beneficial than working a 24- more pt contacts, and a more alert student, mainly. I can't see how sleeping is allowed for clinical hours. You're there to experience things, not dream about them. If you're fried, then practice better time management. I worked FT, worked OT, and still did 16 hours of class x 13 months per week with 16-24 hours of clinicals weekly for 11 of those months. I saved up a bunch of paid time off for strategic use prior to beginning class. a fixed 16/12/12 schedule helped tremendously. Naps on the one hour train ride to and from class helped as well. Never did I fall asleep. There's a reason a certain amount of clinical hours are required, and sleep time was not factored in to that #. We were plenty busy anyway. A certain somone from a NY medic school bragged to me how he would go into an ER, and get several signatures during one shift, such as working with two nurses, and another in peds. Going to the CCU and having the doc sign for all three shifts, getting the psych signature, then leaving for the ER, and having a co-worker from his job sign for multiple shifts he never worked, complete with tubes, med admin, and other skills. Sleeping during clinicals is loosely analagous to getting credit for fraudulent hours as above. It's difficult to be productive while you're unconscious(it's why you're there, period). Explain to me how that isn't so, if you can. At both CCEMS and Fx, we never required students to do chores. I'll frequently quiz them on various topics, and do call review for every pt. For those being pressured into doing housework at the station, how you conduct yourself is vitally important, whether or not you intend to work there. Word travels fast. The EMS world is way smaller than you might think. Many individuals work multiple jobs nowadays. "So and so went to xx medic school. Were they at your station? What do you think about them? Would you hire them? Thanks." I received job offers from Flushing Hosp and Victory Hosp. for per diem work due in part to the impression I gave towards my preceptors. In both cases, I was told that the supervisor asked them about me, and they put in a good word, unbeknownst to me at the time. Word of mouth is of prime importance in the EMS world. Unless you want to complete your career working for some second rate private IFT company.

 

[Sasha]

The block text makes my brain hurt.

 

[DrankTheKoolaid]

re

To me it's ludicrous not to work 24, 48, 72 hour shifts during your internship if you plan on obtaining employment having to work those hours. The preceptor needs to be able to fully evaluate you, including working with a cloudy head just waking from a exhausted deep slumber and still be able to maintain the ability to critically think.

Am i to understand some of these programs you people are in allow you to begin you paramedic internship prior to completion of ALL your didactic and clinical time? It appears that is what i am reading. If a topic should be discussed, that is certainly a better subject to address then sleeping during long internships. The only studying one should be doing during internship is mastering your protocols and brushing up on areas of weakness in exam tecniques and pathophysiology

Having completed my paramedic internship in a busy urban area working 12's and then finishing my internship working 72's in the same rural area i am now employeed with the same preceptor. I think having the same preceptor through out makes alot of sense as they get a chance to see all of your strengths and weakness.

 

[Shishkabob]

My medic school has only hospital clinicals during the didactic portion, and after our final exam, we do an internship with Dallas Fire, doing 24 hour shifts, as to stay with the same preceptor throughout.


As such, kind of hard to dodge 24hr shifts, whether I like to or not.

 

[bstone]

Seriously, you can only study for so long, and if you're there for 24 hours you are expected not to sleep? Wow, talk about a dangerous drive home.

Agreed. A period of sleep is entirely acceptable, even when a medic student.

 

[Shishkabob]

Agreed. A period of sleep is entirely acceptable, even when a medic student.

We're expected to have LESS sleep? CRAP!

 

[bstone]

We're expected to have LESS sleep? CRAP!

There are those on this forum who suggest a medic student who is doing a 24-hour internship on an ALS ambulance should be immediately dismissed from their medic program if they dare attempt to gain sleep while on said shift.

I believe that is insane.

 

[Ridryder911]

There are those on this forum who suggest a medic student who is doing a 24-hour internship on an ALS ambulance should be immediately dismissed from their medic program if they dare attempt to gain sleep while on said shift.

I believe that is insane.

I will never endorse not sleeping for 24 hour shifts, not matter what. I am the best of supervisory to ensure my crews have enough sleep time before going home. If they are 24 shifts, sure common sense will tell you to get as much sleep as possible.

I am personally not in favor for 24 hour clinical shifts for various reasons. I believe students need time to absorb the information that have seen and performed, review it and study cases for more detail. As I have previously posted, I feel that the crew needs some time away from the student during the 24 hour shift as down time. I see a potential problem of those 3 am calls and increasing risks of mistakes being made.

R/r 911

 

[medic417]

There are those on this forum who suggest a medic student who is doing a 24-hour internship on an ALS ambulance should be immediately dismissed from their medic program if they dare attempt to gain sleep while on said shift.

I believe that is insane.

Umm where did you get that quote? I based my statement on a less than 16 hour shift as an intern. Yes I said immediate dismissal for sleeping, but when someone mentioned 24 I said that was different.

 

[bstone]

Umm where did you get that quote? I based my statement on a less than 16 hour shift as an intern. Yes I said immediate dismissal for sleeping, but when someone mentioned 24 I said that was different.

That is simply unreasonable and against all sound medical advice. On my 13 hour shifts I sleep as often as possible. If a medic student wanted to close his eyes for an hour I would not have a problem at all. As a future medical director I promise I would immediately reinstate any dismissed medic student if he had gone 10 hours and wanted to take a brief nap.

 

[Ridryder911]

That is simply unreasonable and against all sound medical advice. On my 13 hour shifts I sleep as often as possible. If a medic student wanted to close his eyes for an hour I would not have a problem at all. As a future medical director I promise I would immediately reinstate any dismissed medic student if he had gone 10 hours and wanted to take a brief nap.

Good thing, most Medical Directors usually don't have any authority in administrative duties. Most are employed for the medical direction only, and will never interfere with daily operations. Not to be rude, but after you finish medical school come back and read your former posts and see what your thoughts are then.

Ten hours? That's not even a full shift.

R/r 911